self's effect on existence

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
User avatar
Mouse
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Kyogle, Australia

self's effect on existence

Post by Mouse » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:36 am

Does any one have an insight into the self's effect on existence?

My own sense, based on the inspiration of the teacher Barry Long is that it does. If the body is the projector of existence what is in the body is going to affect the projection.
And this influences circumstance.

Any insights are appreciated.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

enigma
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by enigma » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:53 am

The body is not the projector, it is part of the projection. The body is seen just as the tree is seen. They are both expressions. They are both appearances on the screen, and the movie doesn't have an effect on the projector.

User avatar
Mouse
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Kyogle, Australia

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Mouse » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:09 am

Thank you for this enigma. Yes the body is in the movie. But it does appear to be at the centre of the movie, providing a porthole into existence.

Am I right to think that you are saying that self has no effect on circumstance?
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

User avatar
Marcel Franke
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Marcel Franke » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:53 pm

> But it does appear to be at the centre of the movie, providing a porthole into existence.

Is that not that which has been told ?
What if this has not been told ?
What would the experience be ?
Can this be experienced right now ?
Is there any form of division then ?
---ooOoo---

User avatar
Mouse
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Kyogle, Australia

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Mouse » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:42 pm

It has been told and has not been faulted
It is true that existence is dependent on the 'brain'. No brain/body, no existence.
This has been told and appears to be true.

Yet self can appear and dissipate without seeming to affect the overall projection of nature and the rest.
But subtly we see the forests disappear and rationally we say 'That is because I cut it down'.
The earth seems destined for destruction.
And I wonder if this is because of an accumulation of self. Centuries, millennia of projecting force in the psyche.
Does it just dissipate or does it return to claim the babies and influence the future? Isn't that what Karma is?

It is a question of responsibility, who is responsible for self.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

18andlife
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by 18andlife » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:51 am

Mouse wrote:It is true that existence is dependent on the 'brain'. No brain/body, no existence.
Being that we are mammals what you are saying is certainly the case for you and I, but maybe we could be open to the possibility that it's not necessarily the case for every manifestation in this universe.

When I observe how things manifest within in this field of awareness it strikes me that having an organic body and an organic brain needn't be a prerequisite for existance. In fact, in terms of the totality of what is manifesting to us the bodily sensation in particular is very course. At times it's manifestation is about as subtile as sending morse code with a sledge hammer. It's just a suspicion, but in a more refined existance (whatever that might look like) I'd say the body would simpily be too course to exist.

That having been said, it's what we have to work with: for you and I the body and brain appear as fundimental cornerstones of our existance. It's like having a factory set up which will produce something in particular, but for us the end product of this factory is just experience, pure manifestation. And part of our particular production line which produces that particular experience is an organic body and an organic brain.

So what about the self? Good question, I have questions about it too.

I am not sure if this "self" is directly a component of body and brain, or if it arisies prior to body and brain, but to me the interesting thing is that the appearance of the self seems to have exactly the same characteristics as the rest of the components which produce this particular experience. As far as I can tell, the self, (atleast in terms of what can be directly observed or discussed), is just part of the production line as well.

At the best of times I can see pretty clearly how it all works, but from where is it working? ~I know not.

bruce lee
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:09 am

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by bruce lee » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:13 am

yes,,i am the projector, but the self distorts it,,,rather than seeing the picture as whole and complete,,,i pick out tiny fragments that relate to me or annoy me or anger me or please me,,,this is like picking up a jigsaw piece and trying to make sense of it in its own right,,,,on its own it doesnt mean very much,,,so the projector,,,you have to see the big picture without getting bogged down in little details,,,and that isnt easy at all as we know.... self reacts to things in the projection, a traffic jam, a person we dont like and we narrow down the vastness to one small thing ...

enigma
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by enigma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:37 am

Mouse wrote:Thank you for this enigma. Yes the body is in the movie. But it does appear to be at the centre of the movie, providing a porthole into existence.

Am I right to think that you are saying that self has no effect on circumstance?
Yes, I say nothing on the screen causes anything on the screen to happen.

The "center" of the experience is always going to be HERE. For you it is HERE and for me it is HERE. This is because there is only HERE. One way to look at is that a body is put HERE to explain why everything shows up HERE. Hereness is not, however, locked into using a body for that to happen, as can become apparent in NDE's, OBE's and even dreams.

To take it a step too far, sense organs are created to explain how sensing happens, and brain created to explain how thinking happens. They seem like 'reasonable' explanations. Hehe.

User avatar
Marcel Franke
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Marcel Franke » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:05 pm

> This has been told and appears to be true.

Actually, there is only direct experience.
In which everything is included.
Tellings too.
You cant find anything else then this experienced moment.
Selfexistence.
It can not be broken in two.
---ooOoo---

User avatar
Mouse
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Kyogle, Australia

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Mouse » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:57 pm

enigma wrote: Yes, I say nothing on the screen causes anything on the screen to happen.
So do you see the invisible self(that doesn't exist) to be on the screen?

And I hear what you are saying in the second part of your post. Perhaps what those other perspectives are perceiving is the original reality in the psyche. So, there, a body is not needed while it obviously appears to be required to partake in this physical reality. Is there such a thing as the psychic reality that is projected by the brain? Is the self part of that? That is the question.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

User avatar
Mouse
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Kyogle, Australia

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Mouse » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:02 am

Marcel Franke wrote: It can not be broken in two.
Yet woman has two arms, two eyes, and appears to be carrying two coconuts. That is just division by the rational mind of course.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

enigma
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by enigma » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:37 am

Mouse wrote:
enigma wrote: Yes, I say nothing on the screen causes anything on the screen to happen.
So do you see the invisible self(that doesn't exist) to be on the screen?

And I hear what you are saying in the second part of your post. Perhaps what those other perspectives are perceiving is the original reality in the psyche. So, there, a body is not needed while it obviously appears to be required to partake in this physical reality. Is there such a thing as the psychic reality that is projected by the brain? Is the self part of that? That is the question.
Everything you see is on the screen. If you see a self, it is on the screen.
Body is IN Consciousness. Brain is IN consciousness. 'me' is IN consciousness. There is only conciousness.

enigma
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by enigma » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:44 am

Mouse wrote:
Marcel Franke wrote: It can not be broken in two.
Yet woman has two arms, two eyes, and appears to be carrying two coconuts. That is just division by the rational mind of course.
Experience is (necessarily) the experience of multiplicity. It's an appearance. Brains appear and they appear to be needed for existence, which appears to and as existence. All appearances are existence appearing.

User avatar
Mouse
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Kyogle, Australia

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by Mouse » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:44 am

I see Enigma, you are forever negating substance and substantive 'stuff' and that is valuable. But my question is the about terminal mess 'I' have made of existence, it appears of no consequence to nondualism.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

enigma
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: self's effect on existence

Post by enigma » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:16 am

Mouse wrote:I see Enigma, you are forever negating substance and substantive 'stuff' and that is valuable. But my question is the about terminal mess 'I' have made of existence, it appears of no consequence to nondualism.
Oh, I wouldn't say it's of no consequence in nondualism. It's just that the only way to straighten out the 'mess' is to let go of the steering wheel; to stop trying to interfere with the spontaneous unfolding of creation. It's the belief in the 'me' that has made a mess of things to begin with, and so what is there to do but to do away with this belief? Nonduality is all about ending the suffering by removing the ignorance that causes it.

Post Reply