Fixed reference point

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cuno
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Fixed reference point

Post by cuno » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:19 pm

Hi folks;
Nowadays without a fixed reference point I am getting lost, overcome by the waves of change flowing round and round within my mind. In the busyness of my life, I need to have a reference point to anchor my attention to. This is like an aid to help maintain presence of my mind. And I am very upset about Why I can't stay in a non-doing state. :oops:
I am very curious if Echart,Osho,Maharaj or any other enlightened people ever used a fixed reference point (breath,touch point etc)when they are in a constant state of struggle in their daily lives after they are enlightened.

Cuno

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eputkonen
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by eputkonen » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:42 pm

cuno wrote:Hi folks;
Nowadays without a fixed reference point I am getting lost, overcome by the waves of change flowing round and round within my mind. In the busyness of my life, I need to have a reference point to anchor my attention to. This is like an aid to help maintain presence of my mind. And I am very upset about Why I can't stay in a non-doing state. :oops:
I am very curious if Echart,Osho,Maharaj or any other enlightened people ever used a fixed reference point (breath,touch point etc)when they are in a constant state of struggle in their daily lives after they are enlightened.

Cuno
No reference point is needed after enlightenment...except maybe the Self itself.
Who/what needs a reference point? - the ego. If the ego still has that much sway in life in someone's life, then he or she is not that enlightened. For enlightenment is to see through the illusion of ego and life...so that the waves of change no longer matter nor cause suffering.

Struggle exists for ego...not the Self.

Egoically...this can not be faked by using a fixed reference point.
Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
@EngagedNondual on Twitter
https://www.youtube.com/EricPutkonen

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cuno
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by cuno » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:09 am

>>>>>ever used a fixed reference point (breath,touch point etc)when they are in a constant state of struggle in their daily lives after they are enlightened.>>>
Cuno

Hello Eric;

Thank you for your reply.I have wrongly put the phrase 'after they are enlightened.'I meant before they are enlightened not after. :oops:I have heard coming back to the breath recommended when one gets carried away by thought and emotion. What about you Eric?Don't you use a reference point whenever you are in stress?

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Mouse
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:29 pm

cuno wrote:ever used a fixed reference point (breath,touch point etc)when they are in a constant state of struggle in their daily lives after they are enlightened.
Cuno
Feeling the sensational reality of the body will make you more still. By sensational reality I am refering to the unified feeling of wellbeing in the body. The inner sensation of it. This is the feeling of vital life in the body.

That is new and everpresent. It can be felt inside the body and is the substitute for thinking and it works because it is more pleasurable than thinking, and more real.

The obstacle to feeling this is the 'self', the psychic force in the body. Thinking is a part of this force.

The breath is useful but the attention can get attached to the movement, the pure sensation of the whole body is psychically deeper and more constant than the breath. It is formless and unbounded.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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eputkonen
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by eputkonen » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:37 pm

cuno wrote:Thank you for your reply.I have wrongly put the phrase 'after they are enlightened.'I meant before they are enlightened not after. :oops:I have heard coming back to the breath recommended when one gets carried away by thought and emotion. What about you Eric?Don't you use a reference point whenever you are in stress?
No, I don't use a reference point...except perhaps the Self.

How about turning inward - who or what is stressed and who/what wants escape?

Instead of egoically trying to do something...cease trying to do anything and question who/what am I...and who/what has the problem? Instead of egoically trying to do something...awareness and consciousness is turned to face the ego (for it is the ego that has a problem...it is the ego that is stressed). Look into and delve into who/what is stressed and has a problem (i.e. the ego) and see through the mirage we call ego by delving into the Self. In the end...understanding is all.

To do anything else is only to perpetuate the illusion of the ego by egoically trying to do something. As if doing something (egoically) will free you from the ego...which it can not.

P.S. this is assuming presence...if you are thinking about past and future, you are not really aware of 'what is' here and now.
Last edited by eputkonen on Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
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https://www.youtube.com/EricPutkonen

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Sighclone
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:33 am

In his interview with Bonnie Greenwell (#64 in the Dharma Cafe Audio Archive series on his website - $10), Adyashanti addresses the idea of being centered -- it's in about the third hour of four. He says that concept is not his experience -- that awakening removes the distinction between the center and the periphery of everything in life, especially one's "sense of self." He experienced that "he" was everywhere, and comfortable not being centered, not having a fixed reference point.

That said, Eckhart has a series of "exercises" in his CD "Gateways to Now" which use the Inner Body as a fixed reference point, among other things. Perhaps that can be helpful.

However, wherever you are, there you are. If you need to have a fixed reference point now, then you do, and you should find one. Do not judge the need. I spent about 15 years needing to pray to a "God out there in Heaven." This is after being a self-proclaimed Buddhist. It worked for me until it didn't. Cuno, find a reasonable, supportable fixed reference point, a defined "ego-base" if you will. Own that you need it now (that is very clear from your post.) Let all this "awakening" stuff sit on the shelf for awhile -- maybe for years. Get comfortable with who you are today, egoic or not.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

enigma
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:17 pm

the pure sensation of the whole body is psychically deeper and more constant than the breath. It is formless and unbounded.
Seems to me the sensation of the body is bounded by the form of the body.
Awareness of the body isn't some transcendent nondual state. It's just a tool to bring attention out of the mind and into what is present here and now.

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Mouse
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:43 am

enigma wrote:
the pure sensation of the whole body is psychically deeper and more constant than the breath. It is formless and unbounded.
Seems to me the sensation of the body is bounded by the form of the body.
Awareness of the body isn't some transcendent nondual state. It's just a tool to bring attention out of the mind and into what is present here and now.
The mental concept of the body is holding the sensation in a shape. Being the body is the immanent, not transcendent, state of being.

The false self and the more real sensational self (inner body) both act as substantive filters to purify or 'still' the awareness so that it can 'see' through these to the purified mirror beyond.That mirror reflects what "I" am.

I can see my self in the mirror, aswell as the sensational reality, aswell as the absence of all that. What I reflect on, I am.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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cuno
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by cuno » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:03 am

Thank you Folks for your replies,
Nowadays my mind finds the now terribly boring. My mind cannot tolerate boredom, not even a tiny possibility of boredom.That’s why I need or use a fixed reference point.as if staying in the present won’t give a solution to my never ending troubles.On the contrary Maharaj says;
M: You need not worry about your worries. Just be. Do not try to be quiet; do not make 'being quiet' into a task to be performed. Don't be restless about 'being quiet', miserable about 'being happy'. Just be aware that you are and remain aware -- don't say: 'yes, I am; what next?' There is no 'next' in 'I am'. It is a timeless state.
And leonard Jacobson says;
*I choose the present moment however ordinary it is rather than to be lost in a world of illusion hovewer amazing that dream might be or promised to be..that is the choice.

And Maharaj says;
M: You cannot renounce. You may leave your home and give trouble to your family, but
attachments are in the mind and will not leave you until you know your mind in and out. First thing
first -- know yourself, all else will come with it.


On one hand he says just be aware on the other that we have to know our mind in and out I really confused.I need to find a gateway to the now. A gateway that bypasses my mind.

love

enigma
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:44 am

I need to find a gateway to the now. A gateway that bypasses my mind.
Presence touches mind, and in it's delirium it looks for a way to bypass mind and get to Presence.
What Maharaj suggests is that you be clear about such things. Be aware of the absurdity. Notice what you're doing. Nothing else is needed to resolve this issue.

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cuno
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by cuno » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:14 am

I tought that It is enough to be present to resolve my issues but leonard Jacobson on the cover of his website says;

"It is not enough to be present. You must also arise in mastery of your mind and ego. Only then will you become established in Presence. Only then will you be eternally free." - Leonard Jacobson
What can I do rather than being present to arise in mastery of my mind ?

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Quinn » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:59 am

I don't think you have to agree with or follow any particular teaching. I practiced Vipassana meditation for 5 years, which IMO is a practice of gaining some mastery over mind. I also studied Buddhism in some depth. At the time, it was something that I felt was necessary for me.

Now I no longer see it as necessary or helpful. In retrospect, though, it feels as if I couldn't have gotten 'here' without it (or without some practice). My identity was wrapped SO tightly with my thinking. Vipassana gave me some breathing room.

I disagree in general with Jacobson's statement that you quoted. I don't think that awakening is about mastering the mind and ego. But in some people (myself included), the discipline of meditation and inquiry can be helpful.

I would say to go with what feels right for you, right now. If mastering the mind is something that feels right - do it. Vipassana is good or any mindfulness practice. Thich Nhat Hahn has some great stuff about mindfulness. Pema Chodron is great, too.

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Sighclone
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:21 pm

Who masters the mind?

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by hanss » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:32 pm

Sighclone wrote:Who masters the mind?

Andy
Poo... another one of those unpleasant questions 8)
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:06 pm

Poo... another one of those unpleasant questions
Mea culpa. But it's all derivative, mostly from Ramana...

Another word we bandy about here is "mind." The Dzogchen Buddhists and Ken Wilber define some sort of Big Mind, a Cosmic Mind, etc. Usually, though, on this forum, "mind" is "that thing that has all those thoughts in it." And we separate it from "feelings." And, moreover, ET's definition of "ego" is "false self created by unconscious identification with the mind." So, we better be sure we are all on the same page when we speak of mind...or at least in general agreement.

I respect and admire Leonard Jacobsen, particularly in his later years...there was a lot of "me guru" at first...check out the body language and tone of voice in his early videos. I think that "mastery" is a misleading word. Perhaps we have to fall back to the tedious passive voice we hear on many of our Advaita teachers. Tedious because it doesn't use active verbs like "arise in mastery." I would say it is necessary, at first, to recognize the mind and ego when they are in the driver's seat. And that perspective can only occur in Presence, Stillness. My experience suggests that the quickest way to do that, in a public environment, in conversation, is to listen to yourself...your speaking voice. Do you hear ego? Not that it is all "bad." In most situations (not like an ET satsang) the standard, assumed currency of interchange is egoic. Yes, non-egoic responses are possible...but not for everyone, all the time....it is what it is, and you are where you are....and it is all perfect.

Ego and mind arise in Consciousness. They arise simultaneously with maya. Simple awareness of them is sufficient, because then, whatever you are is not them...the witness is not the object. Later, the witness, as an entity becomes simply "witnessing."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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