Fixed reference point

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Mouse
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:23 am

Sighclone wrote:Who masters the mind?

Andy
There are 'fingerprints' embedded in Consciousness/God. Not separate yet unique. Apparently we all have unique physical fingerprints (that is the symbol).

It is our unique Self Consciousness or Self Knowledge that masters the mind. Motion in the mind stops because the individual Self Consciousness doesn't need motion to be what it is.

This individual Self Consciousness creates distinction in Consciousness and permits unique Self Knowledge.

(Disclaimer: I have not realised this knowledge but it rings true to me. It is the best explanation I have come across to explain everyones different level of consciousness and self knowledge. This real knowledge lies beyond the access of the mind, it can't be known, it is the state of being, it is the greater reality beyond the mind)
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

enigma
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:20 am

Mouse wrote:
Sighclone wrote:Who masters the mind?

Andy
There are 'fingerprints' embedded in Consciousness/God. Not separate yet unique. Apparently we all have unique physical fingerprints (that is the symbol).

It is our unique Self Consciousness or Self Knowledge that masters the mind. Motion in the mind stops because the individual Self Consciousness doesn't need motion to be what it is.
It also doesn't need for it to stop. It's mind that tries to master the mind, and while it can succeed in the sense that it can form all sorts of fun mind states, this success is conditional on mind remaining the master, and so the 'success' is temporary.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:09 am

Why not switch off the T.V. and enjoy what Is. Are the programs that good?

There is a different channel than The Mind for the awareness to tune into and that is ..."The Sensation Channel :D"

..AS Reported by the SENSES and INNER SENSE of the BODY! Welcome.

" Everything projected is a reflection of .................Reality

appearing Now and having no Continuity.... New Every Moment, and as close a reflection to Consciousness as you will get while you have a Body!!!

So tune In to the Senses and Inner Sensation... It's Sensational.... it's FREE-ing.....its' playing Now!

Watch out for Wordly Channels!... This is the original Pure Earth Channel, Free of the Pollution of the Mind-----Smell the Difference!"



The emotion behind the mind finds this 'being in the senses' incredibly Boring and justifies ways for the Mind, as thinking, to exist.

All thinking and motion in the mind is of the ego, is of the self. It is nothing to do with Consciousness.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

enigma
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:03 am

Thinking, motion, ego, body, senses, all happening in Consciousness, and in fact IS Consciousness, since Consciousness is nothing more or less than this content. Tuning into the body "Sensational Channel" is just one more TV program. How long will it take for you to get bored with that channel and turn attention to the watcher?

However, my point was that it's mind/ego that wants to master mind, or tune into the 'sensational channel'. Awareness has no preference at all.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:21 am

There are 'fingerprints' embedded in Consciousness/God. Not separate yet unique. Apparently we all have unique physical fingerprints (that is the symbol).

It is our unique Self Consciousness or Self Knowledge that masters the mind. Motion in the mind stops because the individual Self Consciousness doesn't need motion to be what it is.
Mind is not the enemy and does not need that big active verb "mastering" to happen to it. The mind does not disappear, not does it need mastering. What is needed is for the mind to be seen for what it is "a bundle of thoughts which have their root in the 'I-thought.'" (Ramana Maharshi, "Talks..." 2nd July, 1936). It is only the Self, the "I am that I AM" which naturally has that perspective, that Understanding.

Mastering the mind implies a master, i.e. an identity, a controller. But awakening is about the dissolution of all forms of egoic self, of mental identities. The darn mind can form thoughts and observations, create big auto-pilot habits which become our style and personality, etc. Where is all that in deep sleep when the mind is still? The Self is still radiant, then, however.

The unique fingerprint of the Self we see in the mirror is no less unique than the first carrot eaten at dinner last night. The moment maya is perceived, infinite duality is manifested. And carefully labelled by all these separate minds. Yes, the mind is still in samahdi, but not because it is mastered, rather it and everything else is released. While awakening is not a mental "state," the essence of mind (and everything else) is pure Consciousness. And words are getting in the way again...


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:30 pm

Sighclone wrote: Mind is not the enemy and does not need that big active verb "mastering" to happen to it. The mind does not disappear, not does it need mastering. What is needed is for the mind to be seen for what it is "a bundle of thoughts which have their root in the 'I-thought.'" (Ramana Maharshi, "Talks..." 2nd July, 1936). It is only the Self, the "I am that I AM" which naturally has that perspective, that Understanding.
That is the mastering of the mind, seeing the false basis of this mind, that it can never know the truth and that it is the eventual cause of disharmony. If that knowledge is lived the mind as motion stops.
Sighclone wrote: Mastering the mind implies a master, i.e. an identity, a controller. But awakening is about the dissolution of all forms of egoic self, of mental identities. The darn mind can form thoughts and observations, create big auto-pilot habits which become our style and personality, etc. Where is all that in deep sleep when the mind is still? The Self is still radiant, then, however.
The deeper controller is seen when the mind is still. That is the point. Let the mind wander and that controller is there as it's dormant shadow. That is subject and object (the dreaded duality) even though the subject has a relatively transparent or weak attachment to thought. There is still attachment to thought and therefore attachment to the deeper controller or lets' say witness-er at this stage.

If I have motion going on in this inner space as the arising of objects - thoughts are objects as are emotions and mood - that is the province of the witness. To declare from that state that nonduality is the truth is obviously untrue. So I say if you declare that nonduality is the truth then you must be free of these inner objects. Fair enough, otherwise there is duality. But perhaps logical rules don't apply in nonduality, or there's no one conscious to verify the truth.

I have no problem with thinking, or the mind, or the emotions, as long as that is not included in statements of nonduality.
Sighclone wrote: The unique fingerprint of the Self we see in the mirror is no less unique than the first carrot eaten at dinner last night. The moment maya is perceived, infinite duality is manifested. And carefully labelled by all these separate minds. Yes, the mind is still in samahdi, but not because it is mastered, rather it and everything else is released. While awakening is not a mental "state," the essence of mind (and everything else) is pure Consciousness. And words are getting in the way again...


Andy
So to demonstrate this truth... Would you consider yourself enlightened while being totally lost in the identification with thought to the exclusion of the bird singing in the tree beside you? (sometimes we can't hear those things when we are totally lost in thought) This is a common condition for everybody. Are you in that very moment conscious of that wonderful Knowledge that everything is pure Consciousness?

I think nonduality teachings get people to 'jump the fence' and leave their rubbish (thoughts and selfish emotions) on the abandoned side, still kicking around and polluting the environment. Perhaps it is not considered rubbish anymore? Are they biodegradable or persistent?

This very question is my ongoing concern with nonduality teachings. Will we leave all our thoughts and unresolved emotions for future generations to pick up and be burdened with?
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by hanss » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:41 pm

Mouse wrote:This very question is my ongoing concern with nonduality teachings. Will we leave all our thoughts and unresolved emotions for future generations to pick up and be burdened with?
I'm beginning to get spiritual beliefs.. and none of them are probably true :) But with this issue... I think we all have to deal with everything inside of us, the decision is not ours. There is no real choice to leave something or avoid someting. Sooner or later we will deal with our "stuff". In our own ways or path of life. There is no escape for anyone.
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by cuno » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:07 pm

Leonard Jacobson says;(From the cover of his website)
"It is not enough to be present. You must also arise in mastery of your mind and ego. Only then will you become established in Presence. Only then will you be eternally free."

Andy says;
‘Simple awareness of them(Ego and Mind) is sufficient, because then, whatever you are is not them...the witness is not the object.’

I must say that I am one of great fans of Leonard Jacobson but agree with what Andy says but still these two statements are contradicting with eachother in the sense one says It is not enough to be present and the other says simple awareness is sufficient.Again my question is still unanswered. ‘is it enough to be present or not’

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by hanss » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:15 pm

cuno wrote:Leonard Jacobson says;(From the cover of his website)
"It is not enough to be present. You must also arise in mastery of your mind and ego. Only then will you become established in Presence. Only then will you be eternally free."

Andy says;
‘Simple awareness of them(Ego and Mind) is sufficient, because then, whatever you are is not them...the witness is not the object.’

I must say that I am one of great fans of Leonard Jacobson but agree with what Andy says but still these two statements are contradicting with eachother in the sense one says It is not enough to be present and the other says simple awareness is sufficient.Again my question is still unanswered. ‘is it enough to be present or not’
I guess you have to find the answer for yourself. I run away from anyone that talks about mastering the mind. So I guess I'm sticking with Andy and leave Leonard alone :)
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by cuno » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:59 pm

So I guess I'm sticking with Andy and leave Leonard alone :)[/quote]

me too :mrgreen: by the way I don't take it literally what leonard says if I translated what he says ıt would be a long shot :wink: but still would say he meant through witnessing we become a master of our mind and Ego.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Ziendus » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:02 pm

You might like Peter Brown.

Check out http://www.theopendoorway.org/ .
Texts & YouTubes.
---ooOoo---

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by runstrails » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:42 pm

Hi enigma,

Thanks for your ever insightful posts. I have a question for you.
enigma said :
Awareness has no preference at all
And in the past you've said attention/awareness is totally innocent.

My question is: If awareness has no preference, and, there is no doer, then how is the show run?
Conditioning, perhaps?

So, as the conditioning starts dissolving, then what makes the show go on?

edited to add: Of course, I don't mean to imply that there is some old guy sitting in the sky running the show.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:05 pm

Hi Runstrails

Yeah, I also say nobody's running the show, which explains a lot of things about why the show turns out the way it does. :shock:
We often talk about Awareness as being unconcerned, unmoved, undisturbed, unchanging, and that's because we're referring to the intelligence out of which all thought originates and such things are only found in thought. There really isn't anything spiritual or mystical about this. Non-thinking intelligence is the source of thought. Non-temporal, non-spatial intelligence is the source of the conceptualization of time/space. And I AM that intelligence.

However, this intelligence is also the experiencer of that which it sources, (since the creation can't be an experiencer) and so there is an intelligent response to all forms of perception. There's no difference between that which intelligence sources, and that which it experiences. (Creation and perception are the same) As intelligence 'touches', or engages with, it's own creation of thought, there is a movement within the thought consisting of desires, aversions, intentions, attachments, etc, and this determines how creation/perception unfolds.

So we can say that thoughts, mind, ego, persons, good, evil, everything IS God Godding, (intelligence/Awareness) but only when 'it' responds to it's own creation, which it can only do through the creation itself.

There's a subtlety here that is important and difficult to talk about. I (what I actually am) can only think or speak through my own creation, and am therefore limited by the context of boundaries defined by that creation. I step into my creation in order to relate, and I am then bound by the rules of that relating. Relating is, itself, a false bifurcation; a bounded and encased restriction; a carving out of my own spaciousness to form a separate structure through which relationship with myself can happen.This structure defines an egoic identity. It defines boundaries of language and concept, and since it is bounded, it defines the walls of my prison and the prison bars through which I reach out to myself; the tiny window through which I gaze as I dream the absurdity of transcending my own prison.

All of the movement and struggle I see is the attempt to escape my own prison, and yet I am the walls, and I am beyond the walls.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:31 am

Would you consider yourself enlightened while being totally lost in the identification with thought to the exclusion of the bird singing in the tree beside you? (sometimes we can't hear those things when we are totally lost in thought) This is a common condition for everybody. Are you in that very moment conscious of that wonderful Knowledge that everything is pure Consciousness?

I think nonduality teachings get people to 'jump the fence' and leave their rubbish (thoughts and selfish emotions) on the abandoned side, still kicking around and polluting the environment. Perhaps it is not considered rubbish anymore? Are they biodegradable or persistent?

This very question is my ongoing concern with nonduality teachings. Will we leave all our thoughts and unresolved emotions for future generations to pick up and be burdened with?
The thinking about my antifreeze while the nuthatch chirps just happens. Since Self is not restricted to that thought or the sound of that bird, but rather includes all of it, including whatever definition of "personal self" is active in me, it is conscious of it all. At some level, my attention is on one thing at a time. When Ramana was reading the newspaper, he did just that, and who knows if he was aware of the fly buzzing near his elbow, or the pain in his left arm. Thoughts and feelings are emerging and passing energies. 'Selfish emotions' require constant nourishment with egoic focus, thought and action. They vanish forever without attention.


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:35 am

I don't buy it.

Warning; Totally abstract post to follow

It seems to me to be an intellectual realisation unless it is realised new every moment. The Truth isn't static and can't be remembered, it has to be registered every moment as the absence of "I".

This implies that there is something(really a no-thing) that is conscious of absence. Absence is negation, a very conscious state where the intelligence of the body( the absence) is distinguishing or identifying it's own intelligence (the absence) every moment by negating everything that it isn't. It isn't anything substantive and it isn't 'motion', it isn't anything that is known.

But when it comes to the senses there is a reflection of what it truely is. It truely sees nothing in the senses before the labels appear. For this you have to see through the sensation behind the eyes.If the reality of the senses are examined they will be seen to be utterly still, utterly free channels.

If there is no sound what is the reality of the sense of hearing? It is complete absence. There might be some sensation in the ear or the eye but that has nothing to do with the absence that is necessary for the hearing or seeing of the bird to be perfectly reported. All the senses are completely absent of anything substantive*. This is Consciousness. This is Consciousness making the senses possible.

That is why it is necessary to be the one with the senses, which then all unite into one Sense of sense. This is why it is necessary to see through sensation to see the stark fact. This is the true reflection of the state of Being.

Do you have the conscious perception of the state of Being every moment? If it is not as I have described could you have a go at describing it. If you are watching inner objects or thoughts is that a reflection of Being? Yourself and other Nonduality writers seem to be saying it is. How can these things reflect your true state? Surely they reflect a less intelligent condition.

Now I am not claiming that it is possible to be in this state continually (though some say it is) however this is the Living state of Truth in my experience - just being the senses with nothing arising- which is a direct reflection of total absence, the unknowable, unsayable, the Being behind it all.


I endeavour to write in everyones experience.

*Definition of substantive: This describes the quality of feelings and sensations. They are substantive but not substantial. Substantial is of the matter, the physical table is substantial. The feelings of love, anger, hunger and inner sensation are substantive. Substantive describes the psychic quality of existence as perceived through the body.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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