Fixed reference point

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Sighclone
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:10 am

The mind can focus or not focus. Awareness is frequently distinguished from consciousness...such as awareness "of" something, vs. consciousness being simply the capacity for awareness. The rods and cones and cochlea send their messages to areas of the brain. Depending on the focus of the mind, that input is or is not brought "to mind;" attention is or is not placed on it. But none of this is new to you...everyone is aware of that, and none of that changes after awakening.

What changes is the emergence of knowledge that birds, ears, cars, people, ideas, forums, teachers, planets and universes are all ephemera, including the apparent "owner" of the separate mind. And that Understanding never disappears.

Stillness can be discovered before awakening. It is a background fragrance at all times, afterwards.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:36 am

Sighclone wrote: What changes is the emergence of knowledge that birds, ears, cars, people, ideas, forums, teachers, planets and universes are all ephemera, including the apparent "owner" of the separate mind. And that Understanding never disappears.


Andy
Right. That is a good simple way of putting it. Thanks
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by runstrails » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:01 pm

Engima, thanks for a most enigmatic post! :wink:
enigma wrote:As intelligence 'touches', or engages with, it's own creation of thought, there is a movement within the thought consisting of desires, aversions, intentions, attachments, etc, and this determines how creation/perception unfolds.
Yes, this makes sense. But I assume this does not apply to us humans only. There is a vast universe out there or even on earth where there are 'non-thinking' forms. Plants, bacteria etc..So are you using thought loosely to encompass any movement in existence, any naturally governed process? Thoughts to the human form are like waves within the ocean i.e., a natural attribute of that form.

Also, could you explain how creation/perception are the same?

Sorry for all these mind-related questions. But mind wants to know. No point repressing it!

Thanks!

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:24 pm

Hi RT
I'm using thought loosely to encompass all forms of sentience (the ability to perceive). As creation is perception, creation happens through sentience. This structure also collapses on close examination but we can talk about it this way.

Creation is always happening now, as perception happens. Nothing is being held over from some previous moment, as all temporal and spatial structures are integral to creation/perception. That is, time and space are fundamentally ideas happening now that make the perception of experience and movement possible. As such, we could say the universe flickers in and out of apparent existence continually, or we could say sentience 'makes real' whatever it perceives, or we can say the light of awareness is both the projector and perceiver of what is projected, or we could say the act of being aware of something is identical to the creation of it. That which is not being perceived in some way now, does not exist in any way now. Even when something does seem to exist, it's an appearance only, meaning nothing is happening 'out there'.

To perceive objects is to conceptually expand conceptual objects into an imagined spacial framework. To perceive an event is to conceptually assemble a continuity of apparent movement into an imagined temporal framework.

How's that for enigmatic? Hehe.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by runstrails » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:46 pm

Hi enigma,

Enigmatic and Bold!
As creation is perception, creation happens through sentience.
That which is not being perceived in some way now, does not exist in any way now
Does this imply a form of solipsism?

What about the vastness of this universe? All the stars, suns, planets, meteors that are (perhaps) not sentient and that we cannot see but whose existence we can surmise through physics?
If you equate perception with creation, I can see the emphasis on sentience.
But what about all the non-sentient forms that science tells us exist in this vastness?

Many thanks for your answers. Please know I am genuinely interested in this. It has puzzled me for a long time. I'm not doing this for they sake of debating. I really don't care much for arguing. Thanks!

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:03 pm

Does this imply a form of solipsism?
Yeah, though solipsism asserts that the individual and his mind and what appears to that mind are inherently real and known, while I would say these are all also just appearances and nothing can be 'known' in that way.

Gotta go now, but I'll jabber about the other part of your post when I get back.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by 18andlife » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:54 am

Enigma;

Question for you: the average human field of vision is about 200 degrees; so what about the other 160 degrees? What's going on behind you right now? Do you contend that there's nothing back there? When you close your eyes does the front become like the back?

I guess in a sense you are saying there is essentially nothing going on in front either, fair enough, but in a manner of speaking: how do the two fields of vision differ?

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:57 am

runstrails wrote:Hi enigma,

Enigmatic and Bold!
As creation is perception, creation happens through sentience.
That which is not being perceived in some way now, does not exist in any way now
Does this imply a form of solipsism?

What about the vastness of this universe? All the stars, suns, planets, meteors that are (perhaps) not sentient and that we cannot see but whose existence we can surmise through physics?
If you equate perception with creation, I can see the emphasis on sentience.
But what about all the non-sentient forms that science tells us exist in this vastness?

Many thanks for your answers. Please know I am genuinely interested in this. It has puzzled me for a long time. I'm not doing this for they sake of debating. I really don't care much for arguing. Thanks!
Naw, it's fine. I appreciate your interest in exploring.
You're referring to objects that objectively exist 'out there' and I'm suggesting that there isn't anything objectively happening 'out there' and in fact there isn't an 'out there'. Your nightly dreams give a taste of this. In those dreams, there seem to be others and objects and distance, but all of it is in your mind; no space, no objects, nothing but a dreamscape of perception. Nothing is happening in your dream that you are not attending to. Whatever you are perceiving in your dream is all that is happening because they are literally the same (what you perceive and what is happening).

In the 'real life' dream there are multiple perspectives happening, and so from your individualized perspective there are things happening that you aren't personally aware of, but they still aren't happening 'out there'. They are all happening in consciousness, and you (the person) are one of those happenings.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:07 am

18andlife wrote:Enigma;

Question for you: the average human field of vision is about 200 degrees; so what about the other 160 degrees? What's going on behind you right now? Do you contend that there's nothing back there? When you close your eyes does the front become like the back?

I guess in a sense you are saying there is essentially nothing going on in front either, fair enough, but in a manner of speaking: how do the two fields of vision differ?
Yes, that's what I would say. Vision isn't caused by sensors in the head and thoughts aren't caused by neurons in the brain. We're 'reasonably' faithful to the stories we tell about how all of this works, and so it works pretty much the way we believe it does, at least until somebody hops out of their body and looks around and thinks about what he's looking at.

The cause of everything is consciousness. All boundaries are self imposed.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by 18andlife » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:31 am

enigma wrote:Vision isn't caused by sensors in the head and thoughts aren't caused by neurons in the brain.
Would you say that there are individual objects which are appear in/as consciousness as they arise and pass away, or is there just seeing which happens en masse apearing as consciousness? Is seeing like rain drops, or is it like a shifting body of water?

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:33 am

18andlife wrote:
enigma wrote:Vision isn't caused by sensors in the head and thoughts aren't caused by neurons in the brain.
Would you say that there are individual objects which are appear in/as consciousness as they arise and pass away, or is there just seeing which happens en masse apearing as consciousness? Is seeing like rain drops, or is it like a shifting body of water?
I don't really understand the question.
A mind appears. A thought appears in the mind. A tree appears. A bird appears in the tree. There really is no difference. Images within images. A dream within a dream. While identified as one of the dream objects, it can make no sense at all.

In reference to the original quote, Marie has a hearing deficit; completely deaf in one ear. Over the years we've talked about these imaginary boundaries and clarified the emotional cause of her hearing deficit. On at least three occasions, her hearing has temporarily improved greatly to where she can hear bird songs, the faint jet noises overhead, subtle intonations in my voice. Science says this isn't possible since the nerves in her ear are dead. I say hearing does not require ears. At her own pace, she'll come to understand. The body is not a cause, it's an explanation.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by 18andlife » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:24 am

I don't really understand the question.
I am just trying to piece together how you feel the arising occurs. It seems to me that if time is an idea and continuity is an illusion the appearance of sight and sound etc must happen all at once somehow. Not one arising after another as it seems to be.
I say hearing does not require ears.
By my understanding you need three things for an arising to occur: 1) a sense organ, 2) a sense object, and 3) consciousness. If any one of the three is missing there can be no arising.

..

Anyhoo, it's a really interesting outlook you have enigma.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by runstrails » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:23 pm

Thanks enigma and 18andlife for your points of view.

It appears that like certainties in science regarding the working of the universe are ephemeral (fleeting), so too points of view in spirituality appear to be diverse.

I am realizing the only things we can say for certain are there is no "you" and there is only Oneness. Everything else (at least in my case) are explanations conjured up by the mind. Accepting the uncertainty in knowing just how its all happening, and yet allowing for diversity in viewpoints may yet be one of the most important steps in my spiritual development.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by ichc » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:49 pm

18andlife wrote:By my understanding you need three things for an arising to occur: 1) a sense organ, 2) a sense object, and 3) consciousness. If any one of the three is missing there can be no arising.
Sounds good, but if we go with this theory we need something else needed as well.
We need at least two 'linkers' to link the sense object to the organ and the organ to consciousness.
And now, we have two problems:
1. since the linkers are not sense objects or organs, then extra linkers are needed to link the linkers to the other 'objects' and so on
2. how do we deal with the most difficult link: the link between the sense organ and consciousness, since consciousness is not an object?

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:18 pm

I am just trying to piece together how you feel the arising occurs. It seems to me that if time is an idea and continuity is an illusion the appearance of sight and sound etc must happen all at once somehow. Not one arising after another as it seems to be.
Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying.
The parts of events don't happen 'all at once', they happen now. To say they happen all at once is to assume that happenings spaced out along a timeline are somehow collapsed into a single point, and this misses the point that the timeline was imagined to begin with. We can't arrive at the actuality by manipulating the illusion.

The same is often done with the concept of oneness. We begin with the illusion of separate parts and try to imagine how the parts are somehow joined in oneness, which can never be. There are no parts to begin with as this is the illusion. Oneness is simply the absence of the idea of parts.

Likewise, mind objectifies events and assembles a continuity where actually there is nothing objectively happening 'out there'. Time is a differentiation of states of appearance. That is, you continually seek to detect movement because this change of states is experience. This process of differentiating appearances creates the illusion of 'then' and 'now'. Future states can then be projected based on this apparent continuity. The appearance of memory is also happening now, but the implication is that there is sometime other than now.


By my understanding you need three things for an arising to occur: 1) a sense organ, 2) a sense object, and 3) consciousness. If any one of the three is missing there can be no arising.
The sense object is an object appearing IN consciousness. The sense organ is also clearly an object appearing IN consciousness. They are both objects appearing to you, and if you look, they are not actually perceived 'out there'.

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