Fixed reference point

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Sighclone
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:42 pm

The sense object is an object appearing IN consciousness. The sense organ is also clearly an object appearing IN consciousness. They are both objects appearing to you, and if you look, they are not actually perceived 'out there'.
"Consciousness" is almost a cop-out. Of course, it is the only epiphenomenon we can agree on. Rather than "I think, therefore I am," we can say "I am conscious, therefore I am." But the nondualist would say, "There is simply and only unity consciousness -- nobody unique exists -- there is no you or me ... just consciousness." And the mind says..."hogwash." Because the mind bifurcates and labels and "owns" its thoughts. (Yes, and synthesizes and organizes and discovers stuff.)

The challenge is not to refine our concepts, but to experience the unity. And yes, some approach that experience by seeking and studying -- jnani yoga. So when Peter Dziuban, enigma, David Carse, Tony Parsons and others say "Consciousness is All" in 50 different ways, maybe one bell rings...maybe a tiny epiphany...maybe not.

I happen to agree that "Consciousness is All," but, to use David Carse's phrase, the "divine hypnosis" of maya/samsara is rather compelling. How do we know that? Well, mainly because 95% of the people in our society buy in to all of the egoic mental structures which assign and elevate the concept of separate selves...and have for millenia, the distant Upanishads being tossed in a corner.

This forum and our favorite authors and teachers are a whisper in the tornado. Have a great 2011 anyway!


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by runstrails » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:59 pm

Great post, Andy!
Sighclone wrote:
The challenge is not to refine our concepts, but to experience the unity.
Yes, yes, yes!!! Thanks for the reminder :D

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Ralph » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:47 pm

Speaking of fixed reference points.... here is another way of looking at this :

" The Middle Way is freedom from dualistic extremes. It is freedom from fixed viewpoints about yourself, others, and the world. But it is also freedom from fixed viewpoints that there is no self, no other, and no world. It is freedom from fixed views such as "everything exists separately" and "nothing exists." Freedom from "I am a separate person" and from "All is Oneness," as fixed views. It is freedom from personal viewpoints and impersonal viewpoints. In the Middle Way, love, compassion, joy, peace, and freedom are your constant companions."
~ Scott Kiloby

http://www.kiloby.com/videos.php?offset=0&videoid=275

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by ichc » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:12 am

runstrails wrote:I am realizing the only things we can say for certain are there is no "you" and there is only Oneness.
The only thing we can say for certain is that if we say it (or if we believe it) then it's an illusion/game!

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by ichc » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:00 am

Sighclone wrote:The challenge is not to refine our concepts, but to experience the unity.
Unity shows up only when there's no 'you' or 'me'.
So, how can we experience unity?

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:25 am

Sighclone wrote:
The challenge is not to refine our concepts, but to experience the unity.
Unity shows up only when there's no 'you' or 'me'.

So, how can we experience unity?
Welcome ichc! Aw, these paradoxes are so naked, do you have to expose them so starkly? :lol: How can there be "an experience" without "an experiencer?"

I think the best way to answer that is to say that the "unity consciousness experience" has always been happening. When they have asked athletes who were "in the zone," i.e. having a "peak" experience, the athlete would say something like..."I was the experience...I just merged with it...my "sense of 'me' disappeared." Absent that special peak experience, our waking hours are pretty much wrapped up in infinite permutations of the "I-thought." All our thoughts are "my thoughts." And all our experiences are "my experiences." So, since there is this "me" character here, having these thoughts and experiences, and looking out of "my eyes" and seeing lots of "other people," there is not much unity perceived.

The capacity for a unity experience arrives simultaneously with the last gasp of a personal "me." And yes, that is paradoxical phrasing. My first big event like that was pretty shattering, but at the same time, exciting. You can dig around in my 2008 orginal posts here for more details. Many others seem to have the same experience. Personal identity gets fuzzy. And experiencing itself becomes somehow "more holistic." (Yes, I know, really new-agey kind of word -- sorry -- words are bound to their origins in duality.)

The ancient nonduality teachers were much more comfortable with paradoxical phrasing than are we...

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:42 am

Andy:
"Consciousness" is almost a cop-out. Of course, it is the only epiphenomenon we can agree on. Rather than "I think, therefore I am," we can say "I am conscious, therefore I am." But the nondualist would say, "There is simply and only unity consciousness -- nobody unique exists -- there is no you or me ... just consciousness." And the mind says..."hogwash." Because the mind bifurcates and labels and "owns" its thoughts. (Yes, and synthesizes and organizes and discovers stuff.)
I don't really see a conflict. Maybe the idea that there is a 'I' that is in possession of consciousness is the problem.
'I am consciousness' would be fine.

As far as there being no you or me, it's not strictly true which I think you know. There is a unique perspective or expression appearing, and it's appearing in/as consciousness. It's just not volitional or functioning separately or independently from everything, which is all that's meant by 'no me'.

Strangely perhaps, mind isn't actually doing any bifurcating or labeling nor does it own thoughts, though I understand what you're saying. Mind is, itself, a though; a concept about thinking which works best when it's not separated from that which is aware of the thinking.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by kiki » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:58 am

Ralph, that's a great quote from Scott Kiloby - thanks. It's spot on.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:06 am

Sighclone wrote:Sighclone wrote:


Welcome ichc! Aw, these paradoxes are so naked, do you have to expose them so starkly? :lol: How can there be "an experience" without "an experiencer?"

I think the best way to answer that is to say that the "unity consciousness experience" has always been happening. When they have asked athletes who were "in the zone," i.e. having a "peak" experience, the athlete would say something like..."I was the experience...I just merged with it...my "sense of 'me' disappeared." Absent that special peak experience, our waking hours are pretty much wrapped up in infinite permutations of the "I-thought." All our thoughts are "my thoughts." And all our experiences are "my experiences." So, since there is this "me" character here, having these thoughts and experiences, and looking out of "my eyes" and seeing lots of "other people," there is not much unity perceived.


Yes, but 'unity' isn't a perception. (I don't care for "unity" because it seems to imply separate parts unified, which isn't how it is.) We could say Oneness is a realization rather than an experience or we can define Oneness by what is NOT experienced, which is what Scott is implying by 'freedom from personal perspectives.' He's not talking about adding another perspective called unity consciousness.


The capacity for a unity experience arrives simultaneously with the last gasp of a personal "me." And yes, that is paradoxical phrasing. My first big event like that was pretty shattering, but at the same time, exciting. You can dig around in my 2008 orginal posts here for more details. Many others seem to have the same experience. Personal identity gets fuzzy. And experiencing itself becomes somehow "more holistic." (Yes, I know, really new-agey kind of word -- sorry -- words are bound to their origins in duality.)

The ancient nonduality teachers were much more comfortable with paradoxical phrasing than are we...

Andy
There really isn't a paradox with the personal experience of unity consciousness because it's not actually the realization of oneness but rather an experience of it that an apparent person has, and so it has a beginning and an end. The negating factor is, of course, the experiencer.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:59 am

an experience of it that an apparent person has, and so it has a beginning and an end
Yes, unless and until it is abiding, after which it is not an experience with an 'end.'

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:08 am

Sighclone wrote:
an experience of it that an apparent person has, and so it has a beginning and an end
Yes, unless and until it is abiding, after which it is not an experience with an 'end.'

Andy
What I'm suggesting is that an experience is not a realization, abiding or otherwise. A realization cannot end because, in essence, it's not an event. It's a loss rather than a gain and a loss cannot be lost. Abiding refers to the abiding in non-dual awareness, not the continuation of some experience.
Again, the difficulty is with the apparent experiencer who sees himself as having a nondual experience. A nondual experience would require an experiencer and that which is experienced.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:59 am

enigma wrote:
Sighclone wrote:
an experience of it that an apparent person has, and so it has a beginning and an end
Yes, unless and until it is abiding, after which it is not an experience with an 'end.'

Andy
What I'm suggesting is that an experience is not a realization, abiding or otherwise. A realization cannot end because, in essence, it's not an event. It's a loss rather than a gain and a loss cannot be lost. Abiding refers to the abiding in non-dual awareness, not the continuation of some experience.
Again, the difficulty is with the apparent experiencer who sees himself as having a nondual experience. A nondual experience would require an experiencer and that which is experienced.
Are you referring to the unloosable knowledge inherent in the realisation/experience. Such knowledge is always present thereafter but takes no form or shape as such.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by enigma » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:37 pm

Are you referring to the unloosable knowledge inherent in the realisation/experience. Such knowledge is always present thereafter but takes no form or shape as such.
What knowledge are you talking about? The knowledge that the idea of separation is NOT true? The knowledge that the person is NOT a volitional entity? The knowledge that you are NOT bounded in space and time? This is not the knowing of some knowledge. It wouldn't even look like knowledge if not for the knowledge that contradicts it.

It's not just semantics. It's important because it's not knowledge derived from an experience. There is nothing to know and no experience to be had. It is a loss only. Can there be Peace in such a loss? Perhaps it's a good question to look at.

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:49 pm

I guess I consider a "realization" to be a subset of a larger group of "experiences," and that our difference, enigma, is one of semantics...and very minor. A "final realization" is abiding. (That's Adya's word -- he had three awakenings, which, at the time of the first two, felt "final," but then he realized there was "further to go." I do like your suggestion of a "loss," which I'm guessing is a "loss of illusion," a "loss of the need to search," a "loss of compelling desires," a "loss of extremes," etc. And yes, those things will not, cannot return.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Fixed reference point

Post by Mouse » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:07 am

enigma wrote:
Are you referring to the unloosable knowledge inherent in the realisation/experience. Such knowledge is always present thereafter but takes no form or shape as such.
What knowledge are you talking about? The knowledge that the idea of separation is NOT true? The knowledge that the person is NOT a volitional entity? The knowledge that you are NOT bounded in space and time? This is not the knowing of some knowledge. It wouldn't even look like knowledge if not for the knowledge that contradicts it.

It's not just semantics. It's important because it's not knowledge derived from an experience. There is nothing to know and no experience to be had. It is a loss only. Can there be Peace in such a loss? Perhaps it's a good question to look at.
Yes that is what Knowledge is and it is imparted by realisation. Knowledge doesn't need to be reflected on and in fact can't be reflected on, it can't be known. It just is what has been realised, without knowing it.

An example of Knowledge would be: "all is fine all is good" despite the loss perceived by my self.

Knowing is of the mind. Know-ing is the action of reflection on memory and experience , which is a reflection on an impression made after the moment of realisation when the mind has reappeared. There is an impression of the realisation seared into the memory/mind and that is related to as the experience. So the term experience is associated with reflecting on the experience in the memory after the realisation or event. And the impression is called the Experience.

A realisation is totally 'negative' while the impression seared into the memory is a 'positive' and this is what the mind can reflect on and call the experience.


And I want to thank you all who have replied to my posts. The scrutiny has driven me deeper to accept 'nothing' as what I am, breaking the attachment to what seems to be what I am.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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