The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:23 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Engima said: The ability to respond remains. Response happens. It is not, however, motivated by judgment, and does not lead to guilt or remorse. It simply is what it is. Since there was never someone in charge to begin with, nothing is lost but the delusion of control and the contamination of judgment. In losing the ability to blame myself, I also cannot blame you. This is perhaps the greatest gift we can give to the world; our crippled sense of self righteousness.


From where I’m standing here enigma sounds like this from ET that I quoted previously.
ET: Some people escape from this. Then it is suddenly as if there is more consciousness, which means that for the first time they truly experience free will. Only then can you take responsibility.”





ET is addressing responsibility and uses the idea of free will to talk about it. I've been addressing free will, and using 'ability to respond' to talk about it. While we're not talking about the same thing, there's no disagreement.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:47 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:What about the choices we make that don’t come from thought, but come from Awareness. That have no benefit to little l self, in fact may even involve some – in the little s self sense only, or at least how it would be viewed by those who don’t subscribe to the Oneness notions – sacrifice, which, when the response is chosen in consciousness and willingness and therefore is no sacrifice at all.

Where we can ‘know’ it from awareness, not our little self thoughts, choose from awareness and let it go with awareness. That’s the notion (and where I’d love to see this thread go) that I think ET is remarking upon in the quote above.

It may require an essence of what we might call courage to take the little self and ego to task, selflessness and absolute love.

There are many examples in day to day kindnesses, and not all as dramatic but I’m thinking here as an example, a young boy in our recent floods caught with his mother and younger brother in a torrent who said to a rescuer who was closest to him, “Take my little brother first”.

There is no doubt he knew the immediate danger they were all in. The boy who chose to put his brother first chose within his ability to respond, (but he in no way had a personal responsibility for the life of his brother) and chose in a way that has impacted upon so many others by his love for his brother. Both he and his mother perished and the younger brother was successfully rescued.

When little self is less concerned about itself, is aware that the fears of ego may manifest but can be put aside, what about these choices? These and not the mundane little l life considerations for little self, are the ones that (imho) raise our collective vibration of consciousness.

We are not on any level ‘required’ to choose one way or another in these circumstances, but a little l life lived with this consciousness is very different to one lived in self-centredness, with (I can only ‘feel’ in my experience) an exponential explosion of something very different to fear/ego impacting upon the All. (imho)


All choices come from Awareness as Awareness engages the thought stream, so we can't really distinguish thought based choices from awareness based choices. The essence of Awareness does not think or choose. We would also have to say all choices arise from an individuated perspective, and in it's less derogatory sense, even the most 'selfless' choice is still ego. One can't actually be selfless as long as it is believed that there is a self. Why seemingly selfless choices are made can't be known. What I've been claiming is that the person is not actually making the choices and that these choices are dependent upon the unfolding of the totality of creation, and this nobody can know.

However, one can most often spot the self in a 'selfless' act. If a loved one's life is in danger, the thought may occur 'If I don't act, I can no longer live with myself'. There is great nobility and courage in this, and the movement of love dominates the protective instincts, but it still refers back to the self as one who must act.

I would say the difference we're talking about is between acting unconsciously and acting consciously. We could say this brings about a more 'wholistic' choice, more aligned with the totality of the movement of creation, which implies less of a personal choice rather than more.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:50 pm

Sighclone wrote:Good thoughts, Smiley.

When Adya was learning to meditate, his instructor was very clear on counting breaths was what he had to do, not just sitting. So that's what he did for several months. Then he sent a note to his teacher saying that he had an intuition that maybe he should let the counting stop. The instructor said fine, do ti that way...

Later (in "Falling Into Grace") he says that
true autonomy isn't the same as separation...it is not about "me" as an ego; it's about life itself. It's about spirit embodying form, inhabiting a human form, standing up in that form. The paradox is that first we often awaken from form....Literally the energy within us goes up and out. Eventually, what will hapen is that same energy, that same consciousness, will then come down and in...it begins to realize and awaken to its true autonomy, a sense of being that is quite independent, while not being separate...It is important that we don't make up ideas about all this, that we don't create a whole theory or theology about how spirit should manifest, about how it should discover its own true autonomy. Because as soon as we do that, then we're back in the mind, and we've lost our freedom and illumined creativity. It is about listening...


So maybe "deciding" has a different character to it...more spontaneous...less calculating...

Andy


What Adya refers to as autonomy here is not personal. That's the difference.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:53 pm

Jman wrote:IMO our mind has no free will but that does't mean its pre-determined by some creator. The minds 'Chaotic' deterministic - It's so heavily intertwined with everything else its impossible to predict.


Yup.
It's that whole evil oneness thingy. Hehe.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby Ralph » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:08 pm

How can this question of "free will" ever be answered. By this , I mean, how can one who still believes in its separation even contemplate this question. In my opinion, one must first investigate the validity of their separteness before taking on this question of free will.

So yes, you have free will until it is seen that who you take yourself to be is false and then this question of 'free will' will perhaps not even show up.

Once your true nature has been revealed or recognized or realized, you are then left with the question "Who/what is there to have free will ? " but the funny thing is, there is no one there to answer it . In other words, where can the mind go with this? :roll:
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:34 pm

Ralph wrote:How can this question of "free will" ever be answered. By this , I mean, how can one who still believes in its separation even contemplate this question. In my opinion, one must first investigate the validity of their separteness before taking on this question of free will.

So yes, you have free will until it is seen that who you take yourself to be is false and then this question of 'free will' will perhaps not even show up.

Once your true nature has been revealed or recognized or realized, you are then left with the question "Who/what is there to have free will ? " but the funny thing is, there is no one there to answer it . In other words, where can the mind go with this? :roll:


While someday there might be an answer in mind there doesn't seem to be one now ... but that cuts both ways, either supporting or denying free will. That, at least, is my conclusion from combining superficial understanding of Quantum Mechanics with what mind has gained from self-inquiry (see thread above) -- not the point of self-inquiry I know but relevant to the discussion in the judgment of this little-me. In the meantime there will be two ... one that experiences true nature and the other that understands.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:49 am

Ralph wrote:
So yes, you have free will until it is seen that who you take yourself to be is false and then this question of 'free will' will perhaps not even show up.



Does belief that it is so make it so?
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:00 am

snowheight wrote:
Ralph wrote:How can this question of "free will" ever be answered. By this , I mean, how can one who still believes in its separation even contemplate this question. In my opinion, one must first investigate the validity of their separteness before taking on this question of free will.

So yes, you have free will until it is seen that who you take yourself to be is false and then this question of 'free will' will perhaps not even show up.

Once your true nature has been revealed or recognized or realized, you are then left with the question "Who/what is there to have free will ? " but the funny thing is, there is no one there to answer it . In other words, where can the mind go with this? :roll:


While someday there might be an answer in mind there doesn't seem to be one now ... but that cuts both ways, either supporting or denying free will. That, at least, is my conclusion from combining superficial understanding of Quantum Mechanics with what mind has gained from self-inquiry (see thread above) -- not the point of self-inquiry I know but relevant to the discussion in the judgment of this little-me. In the meantime there will be two ... one that experiences true nature and the other that understands.


You put the understanding out of reach so that it can't harm you. The clarity of no free will is available to every human on the planet right now. What is not possible is to actually seek this understanding since the motivation to do so collapses precisely at the moment of recognition.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby Ralph » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:52 am

enigma wrote:
Does belief that it is so make it so?


That's what beliefs do .... haven't you noticed ?

... unless, of course, you don't believe it . :wink:
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:05 am

Ralph wrote:
enigma wrote:
Does belief that it is so make it so?


That's what beliefs do .... haven't you noticed ?

... unless, of course, you don't believe it . :wink:


Beliefs can lead to appearances, but the appearance may be an illusion.
Believing you are a separate person does not actually make you a separate person.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby Ralph » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:34 am

" The illusion is the mirror image attaching to a belief. The illusion is the ego thinking that it’s separate. It’s not ".

~ Byron Katie
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:01 am

Thanks for the 'movement' of sharing folks. I 'feel' Adya and ET are talking about the same thing. And I think I remember ET discussing response-ability and responsibility in terms of a higher awareness of which is which, just can't put my finger on it. When I read the word responsibility in his sentence it said response ability to me, but that could just be semantics.

The clarity of no free will is available to every human on the planet right now.


Is that your belief enigma?

What is not possible is to actually seek this understanding since the motivation to do so collapses precisely at the moment of recognition.


Looks like the theoretical jury is still out on the theoretical 'existance' of free will, there are more pointers and discussions via wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_responsibility
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Beliefs can lead to appearances, but the appearance may be an illusion. enigma



I would say the difference we're talking about is between acting unconsciously and acting consciously. We could say this brings about a more 'wholistic' choice, more aligned with the totality of the movement of creation, which implies less of a personal choice rather than more.


I'm happy to say I'm not sure, but mean-time having experienced the differences, I'll keep (as far as response able) consciously choosing to be aware of opportunities to choose love and compassion over fear/ego in a way that it really doesn't matter if it's free will or not. It's not personal, It just is.

The 'wholistic' choice that you're mentioning may be more to do with logical reasoning, moral maturity.
so I've jumped to the camp of there is likely no way to prove/disprove whilst in 'individual' form, but we are not bots.
(unless we are bots and don't know it :lol:

So Salem, how you doing with your enquiry? made any choices yet?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:01 am

Ralph wrote:" The illusion is the mirror image attaching to a belief. The illusion is the ego thinking that it’s separate. It’s not ".

~ Byron Katie


Yes, that was my point.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:30 am

enigma wrote:You put the understanding out of reach so that it can't harm you.


Who is this "you" that must be shielded from harm?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:06 am

The free willed chooser, apparently.
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