The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

An engineer can immediately command the respect of an entire room of his peers with three little words ... "I don't know". This is because of the ridiculous and needless cost that a bad plan based on ignorance or the false bravado of a bluff can produce. A lawyer, on the other hand, does not have this luxury and must meet every meme dished out by his opponent with some counter, no matter how unsupportable the position.

Albert Low, on the heart sutra says:

"But we must be careful as the ground is treacherous around here, filled with bogs and pitfalls, and one careless move will cause us to slip from he purity of knowing into the bog of knowledge. Knowledge is crystallized knowing, much like a pot is crystallized clay. For example, scientific theories, no less than the apparatus by which they are verified, are crystallized knowing. A product produced by a company is an idea crystallized in a form that has a demand. Language, music, art likewise are crystallized knowing."

Chapter 9, paragraph 23 of The Iron Cow of Zen.

enigma wrote: The clarity of no free will is available to every human on the planet right now.


How is this not knowledge with no foundation? More mind-stuff, just not as tasty as a science textbook.

and

enigma wrote: There is no paradox


How is non-knowledge (ignorance, blindness) any different in effect from crystallized knowledge?

When the "choice with no chooser/Chooser" paradox is understood and recognized it is a way to say "I don't know", but this is not ignorance or blindness ... rather it is crystallized knowledge which serves as a pier on a port in the sea of surrender.

You seem to look at the boat of Quantum Mechanics that is not on my back and say "oh, what a fool!". :lol:

enigma wrote: I may not be able to see what you perceive as contradictions because I don't make the assumptions that you do. I can't address what isn't there except to say I don't see it.


By contrast the "not seeing" here is not blindness because there has been no resort to the cleaver of judgment ... but if the cleaver is wielded, and the game is joined (as it was several pages ago in this thread) the rules must be followed. An old bit of unattributed wisdom is that angels have no rights as there is no need for law or lawyers in the perfection of Heaven ... but due process is strictly observed in Hell.

Low goes on to say a few sentences later:

"Some teachers, in order to break the grip of crystallization, talk of 'unknowing' mind, or 'not knowing' mind, but this is like driving out poison with poison, and a very little is enough"
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:17 am

enigma wrote:You put the understanding out of reach so that it can't harm you.
snowheight wrote: Who is this "you" that must be shielded from harm?
enigma wrote:The free willed chooser, apparently.
A phantom free from danger from whose lack of existence it is overreaching to declare the error of free-will.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:22 am

Ralph wrote:" The illusion is the mirror image attaching to a belief. The illusion is the ego thinking that it’s separate. It’s not ".

~ Byron Katie


Thanks for that Ralph. I started a new thread based on it.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:14 pm

BK seems to have some sort of crystallized knowledge. She seems to hold the belief that ego is not separate. Where did she acquire such esoteric knowledge, and how arrogant of her not to follow her opinion with the disclamer 'IMHO'? :wink:

And yet this knowledge is also an illusion. She's telling you the knowledge you think you you know is not really true. Based on that knowledge that you believe, you may form a paradox in contrast to some other knowledge you believe, and she may tell you there is no paradox, not because she has some special knowledge about paradox, but because the knowledge that forms the basis for the paradox is not true.
enigma
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:46 pm

enigma wrote:And yet this knowledge is also an illusion. She's telling you the knowledge you think you you know is not really true. Based on that knowledge that you believe, you may form a paradox in contrast to some other knowledge you believe, and she may tell you there is no paradox, not because she has some special knowledge about paradox, but because the knowledge that forms the basis for the paradox is not true.

Rumsfeld could not have said this better.

Yes! ... let the non-extant spinning not-end before it begins and non-continue until the false self is spun out into the conceptually flawed Void.

Enigma, I get the sense that this approach somehow seems tiresome to you, rejoice in your comical and effortless expression of it, and applaud your bold attempts at the next step which non-follows.

Now your general denials of paradox are no longer general, they are specific. No more silence. Not better, not worse, just different.

Namaste
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:53 am

enigma wrote:Acceptance is a description rather than a prescription. It comes about through clarity rather than a volitional choice to accept.


Pondering these two possibilities results in the conclusion that this is simply a matter of semantics.

Whether it was realization or a decision, the same shift occurs, the same firing state of synapses in the brain and the same result of there being a lower probability of psychological pollution in the world.

Either way please do keep writing as no matter which of these applies (to get people to choose or to cause no-ones to realize the true nature), as the attachment to that end result is one of the few conceptual attachments which is not subject to a now continuous review for the sake of balance ... including that of balance itself.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:15 am

Pondering these two possibilities results in the conclusion that this is simply a matter of semantics.

Whether it was realization or a decision, the same shift occurs


In terms of the end result, it doesn't matter. In terms of the clarity that may lead to that end result, it matters very much.
enigma
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby Natalie » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:09 pm

In this excerpt of an interview with Francis Lucille, Science and Nonduality Conference, he talks about the nature of free will and the doer. He believes we don’t choose our thoughts, decisions or actions.
The video is 4 minutes long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUZ7qpPj ... ded#at=236
User avatar
Natalie
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 9:44 am
Location: Florida, USA

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:23 pm

That was very clearly explained. Thanks.
enigma
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby Natalie » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Astonishing clarity. Boy, did I welcome that.

He had me at “if it were true that we choose our thoughts we could decide to have only happy thoughts or no thoughts at all……the thoughts come to us pre-chosen just like the weather and the clouds in the ski”.

My decisions appear as thoughts and my thoughts dictate my actions. This leads me to conclude that I have no free will. But what do I know…
User avatar
Natalie
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 9:44 am
Location: Florida, USA

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:51 am

Yes, you are the passive observer of thoughts, feelings and action. As Francis says "A cosmic event."
enigma
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:24 am

On one shoulder sits an angel. On the other sits a devil. Both ready to whisper influencing thoughts in our ear. Remember the cartoons? A challenging event occurs and a thought comes to mind suggesting a course of action that is loving, but yet another thought arises suggesting an action of cruelty. Neither thought was a matter of direct free will or choice, but arose out of existing conditioning. They were automatic reactions.

But what action will be followed? One based on one of the competing thoughts, or will some other course be considered and followed? What does experience tell us about similar actions? What are the possible consequences? Why would I even consider the possibilities? Or can I consider them at all. Does such consideration influence actions? What does experience tell us about conflicting thoughts? Is it not possible to weigh the possibilities? Experience suggests we do it routinely.

Consider, are you not weighing the options in answering this post even now?

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6303
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:53 am

Note that WW's position is not inconsistent with the idea that we don't have control over the content of our thoughts. Constrained choice would not take up much bandwidth at all, and then again there is that issue of semantics -- who is to say whether the origin of the constrained choice is an emergent phenomenon of the brain or sourced from some supernatural plane? Not sayin' that this is the way it is as I have no basis. Just offering the observation for what it is.

Also, who's to say that everyone would really truly choose to be happy? You see that is an elephant in the room right there...
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby enigma » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:38 am

Consider, are you not weighing the options in answering this post even now?


As Snowheight says, the fact that options are weighed doesn't imply free will. How, when and what options are weighed is determined by conditioning, as is the conclusion of this weighing process.
enigma
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 am

Re: The Nature of the Mind: Where is the Free Will?

Postby snowheight » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:15 pm

enigma wrote: the fact that options are weighed doesn't imply free will


Yes I'd go further to clarify the message in the pages above that even the collapse of multiple options into one actuality does not, in and of itself, conclusively argue for free will.

On the other hand, as WW has pointed out, the lack of choice as to the content of our minds does not, in and of itself, preclude the existence of free will.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1942
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron