My definition of Awakening.

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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby snowheight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:00 am

walken wrote:some of these concepts/pointers kind of have to be taken on Faith

snowheight wrote:Can you reconcile faith with surrender?

You'll have to be more specific. Faith in what? And what is being surrendered?


Faith in any belief (since you brought it up, I would actually rather that you give the specific example) is a hardened crystallized manifestation which is not yielding or supple or malleable. Has a suicide bomber surrendered his perspective or in ending it does he lose what he had to surrender to begin with? (if you answer with the predictable "he had nothing of his own to lose to begin with", then you've short-circuited the whole context of the question about surrender, so please don't bother)

walken wrote:
snowheight wrote:When you meditate, what happens if you accept the truth of a thought?
It depends on the thought. Do you have an example?


seriously? I find it very surprising that you would request an example ... ANY thought ... even "I am that which does not change" ... or "these thoughts are not mine" ... I repeat the question: what if such a thought is judged as "true" during meditation?
Last edited by snowheight on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby snowheight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:18 am

walken wrote:Out of curiosity, what good does it do to label something a concept?


In the context of this silly debate it simply serves to lay the groundwork for a point.

But if we make a very slight change to your question, two simple words:

"Out of curiosity, what good does it do to recognize and observe a concept?"

Then we can look to some of those other non-conceptual posts that are just laying around here for us to pick up off the ground like beggars who have won the lottery:

kiki wrote:Set aside some time each day (15 to 20 minutes, twice a day if possible) to sit down with eyes closed and just observe the flow of thoughts (if you can't find time during the day then try this as you are laying in bed at night waiting for sleep to come). Just watch them, paying close attention to their arising and dissolving. During that period give yourself permission to dismiss the truthfulness of every single thought - your sole purpose is to watch them and not to assign meaning or give them any kind of judgment. Just watch.

See if you can see the first impulse of their arising; when you do this regularly you'll become adept at seeing that impulse at subtler and subtler levels - you will know that there is a thought there, but it will be so faint that it hasn't become fully formed yet - I call these "proto-thoughts". Very often these proto-thoughts will simply dissolve again as soon as they are spotted, without any effort to make that happen. Notice the dissolving of one thought and the appearance of the next one. You'll begin to notice "gaps" between thoughts as you get more attuned to what's happening. In the gap between thoughts something remains.

At some point a realization will arise, "There is an alertness, a stillness, a peacefulness here that is seeing thoughts come and go, and that alertness is constant." This is a wordless realization, and this realization is the initial shift away from identification with ego/mind/thoughts when it's realized that "You" are the alertness itself, You are the stillness itself, You are the peacefulness itself.

Don't be surprised if you drift out of this recognition and get caught up in thought again, that's just the way it works, it's par for the course. When you notice this happening don't judge yourself in any way for what happened, just return to watching thoughts with dispassion. What you are doing here is laying the groundwork for being able to do this outside of these sit down sessions. You are using these sit down sessions to become more and more familiar with this witnessing consciousness that is seeing thoughts, and as you get more familiar with this, your true nature, you'll begin to notice the same thing outside of these sessions, even while engaged in activities.

Think of this as learning how to walk - you start by learning to crawl, and it may take some time before you can crawl with proficiency. Then you'll find yourself "standing and walking" as you get more comfortable and familiar this, but you likely will teeter and fall down again. Eventually, you find that you've gained better balance and remain standing, and can do most anything and still remain alert to what's happening. Finally, you'll find that your balance is so good that you'll be running and doing cartwheels while remaining anchored in true nature.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby walken » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:32 am

snowheight wrote:Faith in a belief (since you brought it up, I would actually rather that you give the specific example) is a hardened crystallized manifestation which is not yielding or supple or malleable. Has a suicide bomber surrendered his perspective or in losing it does he lose what he had to surrender to begin with?


I have no idea what you are talking about. You seemed to come out of left field with these challenges about faith and surrender when we were talking about concepts.

snowheight wrote:seriously? I find it very surprising that you would request an example ... ANY thought ... even "I am that which does not change" ... or "these thoughts are not mine"

I asked because there are a wide range of thoughts and I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove. And while I'd like to say that I don't believe any thoughts that wouldn't be true.

If I accept the truth of the thought, "I shouldn't be doing such and such," I would suffer because I'd be believing my story.
If I accept the truth of the thought, "Damn, I really have to go to the bathroom," I would just go to the bathroom (probably a good idea).
If I accept the truth of the thought, "I am that which does not change" ... crap I don't know. I wouldn't believe that thought. I'd inquire until it was seen to be true. But if I believed that thought, there'd be no awakening.

But I get it. I challenged you by asking "what good does labeling something a concept do". So now you are challenging me.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby walken » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:40 am

great post by kiki
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby snowheight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:48 am

walken wrote:great post by kiki


yes, and from it, you can see what the effect of accepting a thought as true during mediation will have -- it interrupts it, from my experience, which is quite limited, you have to "start-over"

walken wrote:

snowheight wrote:Faith in a belief (since you brought it up, I would actually rather that you give the specific example) is a hardened crystallized manifestation which is not yielding or supple or malleable. Has a suicide bomber surrendered his perspective or in losing it does he lose what he had to surrender to begin with?

I have no idea what you are talking about. You seemed to come out of left field with these challenges about faith and surrender when we were talking about concepts.


Are you sure about that? You must indeed be an enlightened soul to have so quickly have forgotten:

walken wrote:Regarding truth, concepts, etc...

Oneness is a concept but it's also a pointer, and all pointers remain mere concepts until realized. These pointers are not meant to be accepted as Truth, they're invitations to see for "one's self" and/or get you on the right track. However, some of these concepts/pointers kind of have to be taken on Faith just so that one knows what he/she is working towards. Otherwise teachings would ultimately be meaningless.

(emphasis added)

... dude ... you actually used a capital 'F' ...
Last edited by snowheight on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby snowheight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:59 am

walken wrote:But I get it. I challenged you by asking "what good does labeling something a concept do". So now you are challenging me.


Well I do also hope that I responded to your question conceptually and that kiki's post perhaps helped non-conceptually.

As far as challenge/counter-challenge is concerned, I will repeat here what I told enigma in the free will thread: An old bit of unattributed wisdom is that angels have no rights as there is no need for law or lawyers in the perfection of Heaven ... but due process is strictly observed in Hell.

So keep in mind that in a conceptual debate, there is always great use for civility but ruthlessness is of necessity. :wink:

Namaste
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby enigma » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:07 am

oooh snowheight, you are SO full of shit!”


Amen, brutha! Hehe.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby snowheight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:09 am

enigma wrote:
oooh snowheight, you are SO full of shit!”


Amen, brutha! Hehe.


.... Thank you! ... Thank you! (... where is the emoticon for a bow? or throwing a kiss ) ... Thank you ! ...
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby walken » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:14 am

Seems there's some miscommunication going on here. I was talking about faith in a pointer coming from a spiritual teaching (such as oneness or awareness). You seemed to be talking about faith in one's own personal beliefs which didn't make any sense to me.
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Re: My definition of Awakening.

Postby snowheight » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:19 am

walken wrote:Seems there's some miscommunication going on here. I was talking about faith in a pointer coming from a spiritual teaching (such as oneness or awareness). You seemed to be talking about faith in one's own personal beliefs which didn't make any sense to me.


(moved my response to this thread as I think it is more applicable)
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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