What to 'do'?

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Riken
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What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Wed May 11, 2011 8:02 pm

Hello all.

I don't have many questions these days, but I still find myself looking for a final relaxation, a final confirmation that I am pure consciousness and nothing else.

I look for this because despite the fact that after seeing there was no separate 'me' in reality and also having the mind quieten down to practically no-thought, there is not contentment and there are still egoic tendencies present. There is not a great openness in my heart and I find myself not having much to say around anyone anymore.

I can only imagine that the ego is pretending to be an 'enlightened separate self' because I still find myself trying to correct people in a very subtle way. Thoughts come up when looking at a video of a teacher talking with a student thinking "why does this person not get it?!"

There is an inner conflict present because despite looking inwardly and using self-inquiry to uncover the 'I' thought as being a fraud, I feel as if I must recognize consciousness.
Repeatedly I come back to Mooji's infamous question 'Can the perceiver be perceived?' A great silence pervades everything at the very thought of this question, but there has been no recognition of the Self (by the way, I'm not looking for it as an object).

overall, I'm finding that despite the mind being really quiet (very very different to what it was before), contrary to what Eckhart says, this is not the end of suffering.

Any ideas?
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

snowheight
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by snowheight » Wed May 11, 2011 8:16 pm

If we start with the premise that desire is the root of suffering, do you think that it be useful to first identify the desire in question here?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

the key master
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by the key master » Wed May 11, 2011 9:30 pm

I don't have many questions these days, but I still find myself looking for a final relaxation, a final confirmation that I am pure consciousness and nothing else.
A final confirmation will never come from that which is ever present. Confirmations are "moments in time", thought created fragments appearing to and being permeated by that which 'perceives the perceiver'. You are always already that and never anything but.
I look for this because despite the fact that after seeing there was no separate 'me' in reality and also having the mind quieten down to practically no-thought, there is not contentment and there are still egoic tendencies present.
In terms of contentment: Do you think it points closer to say there is still seeking taking place, seeking wholeness or fulfillment in some other moment in time which only exists as a mind created fragment? And if this is the case, what are you seeking? Dualistic happiness for an imagined separate self? Could that ever last? More pointedly, is it real?

Regarding egoic tendencies: Notice what they are and inquire for unconsciousness or unresolved conflict. Conditioned tendencies of the thinking mind are not an indication of ego or mind identification, or lack of enlightenment or whatever obstacle the mind might be creating for itself in any given moment. I'm conditioned to get up and walk my dog after writing this and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. The ego will never transcend itself.
can only imagine that the ego is pretending to be an 'enlightened separate self' because I still find myself trying to correct people in a very subtle way.
Nice, now own that. I am pretending to be an enlightened separate self.
Thoughts come up when looking at a video of a teacher talking with a student thinking "why does this person not get it?!"
Why dont you get it riken?! Look I am pretending too. Maybe we're all pretending and maybe that's ok.
here is an inner conflict present because despite looking inwardly and using self-inquiry to uncover the 'I' thought as being a fraud, I feel as if I must recognize consciousness.
Yea yea. Here language throws us for a loop if we allow ourselves to get bogged down. Can I be conscious that I'm conscious? Well, I already am consciousness, that which witnesses, the timeless immovable observer. Creation and perception are the same. If there is an "I" to recognize consciousness, then we are already in the land of duality created by thought which itself is created by consciousness. As Tolle says, form and formlessness interpentrate. The human experience is ever changing, while the witnessing experience never changes. The witnessing experience is not an experience at all, but the changeless awareness which experience appears to and is permeated by. "My experience" only exists within the boundaries I create through thinking about some other moment as a reference point to now. You are the timeless creator of your own time bound experience which is only bound to the extent you yourself think it to be.
but there has been no recognition of the Self (by the way, I'm not looking for it as an object).
My mind might disagree with your mind on this one regarding your interpretation of your own experience. Geez that sounds presumptious, but what I mean at most is, that my mind thinks your mind still believes that it can somehow fragment that which cannot be fragmented. Only consciousness can be conscious of itself, which is another way of saying, with words and fragments, only consciousness is. Thought is not separate from this isness, its not even an inseparable part. If we can separate a part we can put it back together. That's not the way it works. You are me and I am you, which is to say, there is no me and you and there never actually has been.

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Thu May 12, 2011 12:16 am

Hi TKM, thanks.

I'm not sure how to address the whole 'my mind thinks your minds interpretation' business. I am just letting the question have full room, eventually revealing the self with a direct insight (the 'can the perceiver be perceived' question). The mind has an idea that after this is 'discovered' or 'found out' then that'l be the end of seeking.

I've been told it can be recognized. Not by an 'I', but it reveals itself to itself. The 'I' cannot be real because it can never be found when looked for, nor can a particular entity called ego when it really comes down to it.

I remember Eckhart saying in a video, in one of his more direct teachings, something like "Just become aware that, there is an awareness with which you are aware, that is nirvana, stop overlooking it!" So that has been the thing that keeps me attempting to 'reach' it in subtle ways.
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

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Ananda
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Ananda » Thu May 12, 2011 5:17 am

Hello Riken,

Very nice to hear from you :)

I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of responding to both your posts and your private message in here, I think your questions are very relevant to many people so I'd like to respond to them all here. :)

What to 'do'?
It's quite a pivotal point that you're at, I think, because the answer to your question, 'what to do?' is that there is nothing to do anymore; the very notion of being a doer is redundant for you. You can't practice anything anymore, nor can it really be said there is something new to realize, because these reinforce the false idea of being an agent of actions (ego). You're at an impasse, as it were, because you've realized the falseness of the separate sense of self, but are still holding on to its ideas. You don't need to do any more practicing, nor even shifting of your attention. This sense of ego for you is like a fire with its fuel extinguished- you have cut its source off through your seeing, but its tendencies, its habits, its notions still arise, like smoke. It will pass.

Listen now, simply give up the notion of doing anything- it is not there when your mind is silent, the doer is gone then. When there is no doer, when the mind is silent, then there is no ego there, only habits impelled by past actions. When the mind is silent, which is your common, self-controlled state, then there is no separate person who can meditate, or realize the Self, or shift attention, or do anything at all.

These doubts only arise when the mind is compelled to thought again. The notion of the doer, of the ego, rises up again when the mind becomes noisy. I'm sure you've noticed this process by now. Recognise that all of these doubts, these thoughts about ego, of being an ego, of being a doer, of practicing or of realizing, or of getting enlightened, they are only thoughts which rise up when the mind is stirred. You exist already completely distinctly from this process, as its witness. You don't do anything to become the witness, or to realize the witness, it is identical to you, it's your own sense of being that persists whether or not these thoughts and doubts are there or not. Don't try to realize this sense of being, you don't need to-only give up the notion of being a doer by keeping the mind quiet. Keep the mind silent and your existence will be abundantly apparent. The notion of needing to realize this sense of being presupposes a distinction between you and it, and therefore that you are an agent (doer), and the sense of being is an object of action, and this is false. Give up the notion of being different from the Self by keeping the mind silent. You don't need to reach towards the Self, either, because you are truly it even now. Just keep the mind silent and all ideas of grasping and rejecting, of separation and attainment, will cease, and you, as you are, will become obvious.

It is simple now, but subtle. When the mind is not, then I am. When the doer is not, then I am. When all notions and ideas about myself, about the world, of being a person within the world, when all these have stopped with the cessation of the mind, then I am. When my mind is not, then my experience of the world is non-different from my awareness, from my sense of existence. This is very important here, to recognise this now. When the mind is silent completely, then I cannot distinguish between what I experience and my awareness within which the experience arises- in fact there is no difference between the two, because all differences are ideas only- and ideas cease when the mind is silent.

There is this sense of existence, which is the witness of the presence or absence of the mind. You can not practice your way towards it, only recognise that you are it. Recognition is not an action to perform, it is not a practice, it's not the creation of something new, not the realization of something previously unknown- it is just seeing what is apparent without effort, without thought, without action. Don't do anything now. Kill the doer by keeping the mind perfectly still. Awareness shines forth with no effort, with no action or intention. Awareness is the constant backdrop on which your experience appears. You can't bring it about, just notice that it is already here. Keep your mind silent and you will realize that awareness is constantly present, constantly behind every experience as its seer, as its very Self. Awareness is the sense of 'I' that exists when the mind, and the 'I' thought are silent. The sense of I pervades all of your experiences like salt dissolved in water, underlies them like the cinema screen, and is their very essence like ornaments made from gold.

Your sense of 'I' is not the I thought. It's not the mind or its thoughts. It's not the body. It's not inside or outside of the body. It's not limited to anything. It is the fabric out of which your experiences are woven. This sense of I appears limited when the mind is noisy. When your mind is silent, then recognise this sense of your own self, this sense of I; its false limitations dissolve. When the mind is silent, then there is nothing and nowhere that is separate from your sense of self, from this I. The differences of subject and object, of the self and the world, do not exist when the mind is silent. The world, your experience of it, and your own Self are knitted together out of the same sense of I, out of this sense of existence, this awareness. They are all identical, they are all you. When your mind is silent, then you are everything- only recognise this now, only be aware of your existence.

I don't have many questions these days, but I still find myself looking for a final relaxation, a final confirmation that I am pure consciousness and nothing else.
In the Yoga Vasistha, the sage Suka asks King Janaka the very same thing;
"O mighty one, is this realization of mine real? Tell me, then, that it may become steady since my mind, owing to doubt, is roaming about the world and makes me also restless, so that I may obtain tranquility."
-3.46

Janaka replies, to reassure Suka;
"O sage, there is no other conviction of any kind superior to that which you have realized for yourself."
-3.47

To emphasize his answer, he says further;
"In this world there is only one undivided Being, who is pure intelligence, and nothing else (exists). He has become bound by his own mentations and shall be freed with the subsidence of the same."
-3.48

Essentially Janaka is saying here that the world is nothing but one undivided Being ie pure intelligence or awareness. It is only when the mind becomes agitated that false notions are created and the seeds of ignorance (actions) are sown. When the mind subsides, such as you have experienced, then this one undivided Being can be directly recognised as the reality behind all experiences. I use the word recognise here and not realize. To realize is to bring something into being, or to know what was previously unknown. To recognise is a re-cognition, a remembrance, of what one already knows. Everybody knows their own being. Nobody can deny his sense of self- he just confuses it with objects such as the mind or the body. The sense of self does not need to be realized or looked for, because it is obvious even before anything else can be obvious, it must exist before knowledge of anything else can exist. Your sense of self seems to be mixed up with the body, but this is only so when the mind is being stirred up with its sticky ideas. Keep the mind quiet and your sense of self with become unpolluted and crystal clear- all attachment with ideas and the body will stop, and there will be no effort on your part to directly recognise your Self as that objectless, limitless awareness.

So, Suka, hearing the confirmation of his teacher, gave up the notions in his mind of being a doer, and of being separate from the Self, by keeping his mind silent, and thus the Self revealed itself, and he abided in his nature without effort;
"...Suka, thus being instructed by the great soul Janaka, became silent minded and rested in the Self, the supreme Reality; freed from sorrow, fear, and endeavour, devoid of effort, and doubts resolved."
-3.51

Keep your mind silent, and don't expect something else. Don't wait for something else to happen. Don't wait for a bang or a pop, don't wait for an epiphany. Don't think 'I will recognise the Self', even. Your being is constant, it won't come into being later on. It won't come into existence only after your mind is silent, or in the right conditions. The mind just covers what is already here. It just covers it, it doesnt make it non-existent. You don't need to, and even can't, bring the Self into existence by realizing it. It's not going to descend from on high, or open up in your heart. It's always been there, you've always been there. It is your only constant sense of self, your only abiding sense of being a person. Your identity has changed, your body has changed and grown, your mind has matured and collected experience, but your actual sense of I, your actual, immediate sense of being something, of merely existing, has never changed. That is the Self, and it is already attained. Get rid of the idea of attainment, of bringing something new into being, of realizing something new, by keeping your mind silent. Get rid of the idea of even recognising the Self, as this is also a distracting idea!

Get rid of the idea of needing to recognise the Self, keep your mind completely still, motioneless, and the Self is there already- already recognised, already known all along, like a joke laughing in your face. It is there, don't think you need to realize it, it is already there, because it is you, and you are there. Stop thinking about it, and you are there, already there, already at the finish line, because there is never anywhere to go or anything to do to be your own Self. It is there whether you realize or don't realize, whether you think or don't think, whether you are bored, or happy, or sad, or tired, just stop thinking about it. Stop thinking about anything, stop thinking about yourself, and it is there, self-shining, self-effulgent awareness- blazing like the sun, lighting up all experiences, all states of consciousness, all feelings, undeniably.

I can only imagine that the ego is pretending to be an 'enlightened separate self' because I still find myself trying to correct people in a very subtle way. Thoughts come up when looking at a video of a teacher talking with a student thinking "why does this person not get it?!"
Ignore this thought, it won't be productive for you now to be worrying about the ego when you have already realized that it is false. It would be like convincing yourself you've seen a ghost when you already know ghosts aren't real. If you keep having thoughts such as 'why does this person not get it?', then enjoy the humour that comes with it, and, if you like, use such thoughts to the benefit of other people by helping them 'get it'. :)


Repeatedly I come back to Mooji's infamous question 'Can the perceiver be perceived?' A great silence pervades everything at the very thought of this question, but there has been no recognition of the Self (by the way, I'm not looking for it as an object).
Don't look for a recognition now. A great silence pervades everything with this question 'can the perceiver be perceived?'. So, a great silence pervades everything. Then, the perceiver pervades even this great silence. The Self, your sense of self, of being something and not nothing- it pervades the silence, you know this, so why must you recognise it or realize it afresh? You innately know this Self, this perceiver of silence, or of thoughts. You know this Self already, so any idea of a recognition of it is just a distraction from it. Any idea of realizing the Self, of recognising its existence from a previous state of ignorance, is just a thought, a distraction from the fact of your existence already. Give up all notions of realizing the Self, or recognising the Self, of practicing to see it, of turning your attention to it. Give up all notions, all mental preoccupations, because it is already there and it is already recognised, already realized; just give up all ideas that it isn't, and you will know, because you already know- the knowledge of the Self is innate in you.
The mind has an idea that after this is 'discovered' or 'found out' then that'l be the end of seeking.


Yes. This is the issue. Drop this. Don't associate with this idea. Drop it by not associating with it - by keeping your mind quiet. The idea will fade away. Do you see that the very idea that seeking will end after the Self is discovered is itself the very seeking you aim to end? The idea of recognising the Self and being free from seeking as a result is bondage itself, because the idea presupposes that the Self is not yet recognised, and that seeking is still necessary. Don't entertain this idea, it's a trap, a false reality. Keep your mind quiet and the idea of discovering the Self will become absurd to you, because you are the Self.

I've been told it can be recognized. Not by an 'I', but it reveals itself to itself.
Yes. Because the Self is the knower, it has the capacity to reveal and know. When the 'I' of the mind subsides, then the Self's nature becomes evident (to you, yourself), so you know yourself. It becomes revealed because it is its own knower, its own nature is very apparent to it- just covered up by ideas and experiences. When the mind is silent, the transient unreality of experience becomes seen, when the transient unreality of experience is seen, then the permanent reality of the Self, which is the seer, becomes known directly.

This thing with abiding in the self you spoke alot about in my thread, I have to stop after a few minutes of doing so, focusing on that void, because it feels like I'm going to die. I actually feel like something 'big' is going to come and I will go mad or something other terrible. This is not an every day feeling of fear, it is an anxiety that haunts me everywhere even though my mind is so very quiet these days.
This is important here. The fear you feel is is essentially the death-throes of the ego sense; it's all of the false ideas you have about yourself attempting to reassert themselves in desparation. The feeling that you are going to die is the sense of individuality being rooted out by concentration on the Self. It is not you that is going to die, nor is it the ego - because it never existed but in ignorance. This is knowledge breaking through, knowledge being born- nothing dying but ignorance. Don't resist this- this is the plunge you have to take now. No, it's not that you are going to die, it's that your ignorance is being burnt up. You are not going to die, because you are that void- not the ego which is being crushed by it. You are the void which you are concentrating on, that humongous sense of awareness- all that is being swallowed up into it is your sense of limitations, the limitations imposed on you by the mind in its ignorance. Let them go now, those limitations. Abide in that void, that Self, let everything be swallowed up by it and its nature will be directly revealed without a doubt.
The fear comes in part from reading about Suzanne Segal, a spiritual ... I don't know what, not a teacher really. Point being her sense of personal self pretty much collapsed entirely as has mine, resulting in feelings of depersonalization where the world doesn't feel real. My short term memory isn't working, I can't really distinguish which day is which sometimes, there seems to be little difference between day and night. Is this normal? It's been on and off ever since a particularly poignant moment of self-enquiry where it was revealed 'I' was a construct.
Yes it's very normal. I also experienced short term memory less for a while. It's like throwing off limitations- so the way you see the world completely changes and there is some turbulence in the beginning. Don't worry, these feelings will pass. Don't be afraid of abiding in the Self, keep going and reject all notions and ideas which distract you from it.

Keep your mind silent. Don't wait for anything else, don't think about what will happen- what is already here is already here. This is seen, but not in the future, and not in the mind.

Hope I've helped :)


I'm back online now, so feel free to PM me if you want.


:)

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Thu May 12, 2011 8:33 am

When thought begins to ponder the absence of the separate thinker, a perplexed seeker begins to turn towards teachers and gurus for answers, ignoring their own always-already-awake nature.
Jeff Foster

the key master
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by the key master » Thu May 12, 2011 10:13 am

Yo Riken, and anan! Beautiful post.
Riken said,

I'm not sure how to address the whole 'my mind thinks your minds interpretation' business.
I was actually going for a laugh. You said---->
but there has been no recognition of the Self (by the way, I'm not looking for it as an object).
I was just saying, that I think there has been a recognition of the Self, but only that this recognition can at best be 'represented/fragmented by the thought which thinks about it,' as opposed to actually being 'reached' or 'grasped', as you allude to in your 2nd post, which would be the thought in my mind about your mind, while neither of said minds actually "exist".

Laugh?

:P

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Thu May 12, 2011 7:13 pm

Ananda, cheers, that was spot on. Really appreciate it! :D
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

Ralph
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Ralph » Thu May 12, 2011 8:40 pm

Hi Riken,

I believe this clip is speaking along the same lines as to what Ananda just posted.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AwakeningBr ... hsc0DisrbU

Two Real Choices We Have:

"In a short time, you'll see that nothing touches you." (Mooji)

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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by snowheight » Thu May 12, 2011 9:37 pm

the key master wrote: I was just saying, that I think there has been a recognition of the Self, but only that this recognition can at best be 'represented/fragmented by the thought which thinks about it,' as opposed to actually being 'reached' or 'grasped', as you allude to in your 2nd post, which would be the thought in my mind about your mind, while neither of said minds actually "exist".
This reminds me of an old proposition that "subjectivity is truth" and "truth is subjectivity."
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Sun May 15, 2011 8:49 pm

Hi, thought I would resurrect this a lil bit.

Ananda, I've reread what you've posted maybe half a dozen times now. Every time it makes sense, but then every time theres really no recognition. The self can't be seen, it's just not possible. "Like an eye that can see so many things, but cannot see itself." I'm not saying this just because I've heard it from a teacher, I'm giving my direct experience so that I'm being as authentic as possible.

Every time an experience or emotion or thought or whatever comes up it is seen. Every time it is seen I try to discriminate notice the witness of it. Most of the time it is relatively easy to discern the seeing from the seen, but when I (rarely) get caught in a thought stream, the witness seems so incredibly subtle and certainly not viewable.

It's funny because, I must have confirmed and reconfirmed hundreds of times by now that I cannot be the mind. There was a period of time where I would ask "Who is seeing this?" to every thought and this did its job while it was needed; however now, this does not seem worthwhile anymore. Asking questions doesn't seem necessary, yet still I come for advice. Maybe I still think I'm the body??

I remain as the 'I am', but then I remember Mooji saying "Even the 'I am' is observed - by what is it observed?" So it feels like there is another step to the self.

I don't really know what to do anymore, (as previously posted maybe 50 times :? ) The only thing that seems to bring me back to 'life' as it were is reconnecting with past emotional pain (as the key master previously recommended - cheers for that btw).

I want to be the old me again, honestly, the realization that there was actually no 'me' has made me socially awkward, humorless, induced very strange physical changes such as incredibly deep sleep and short + long term memory loss. I feel cut off from everything.

I just reread the above statement, how come even though theres no me theres still a me in resistance? What i'm writing makes no fucking sense! ARGH
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Sun May 15, 2011 11:14 pm

Riken,

The Mind Seeks, the Seer doesn't. Your post is all about seeking some-thing. Just let go of all seeking and try and accept the Present moment, good or bad. Try and shine consciousness on the Social awkwardness etc.

Being conscious and suffering (social awkward) at the same time will set you free.

Ralph
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Ralph » Mon May 16, 2011 12:43 am

Riken wrote:
I just reread the above statement, how come even though theres no me theres still a me in resistance? What i'm writing makes no fucking sense! ARGH
.... because the belief in a 'separate me' is still there and this 'me' will never get this. You are not your thoughts, this must be seen.

Hang in there, Riken ... this is part of the process. The old you has to be seen for what it truly is. (Just thoughts believed). You are the awareness of thoughts, not the thoughts itself.
I suggest that you now focus on beliefs and thoughts because, in my opinion, they are the ingredients that make up the false self.

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Mon May 16, 2011 1:31 am

When you start having thoughts of social awkwardness, particular when your around people and in a social setting, go deeply into the inner-body. This will take you out of the mind. Thoughts will subside, along with the feelings associated with feeling socially awkward. This is the practice you should start to experiment with. You need to see you are not your thoughts or feelings.

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Mon May 16, 2011 4:11 am

Hey, thanks for the replies :)

How come every time I get frustrated I end up giving up completely and having a fundamental insight some time later? :D

Must be surrender!
I was reading an old reply from Kiki and the part which really stood out for me was "Instead of looking for the witness as an object, just REST as that knowing." Suddenly I was just overcome with joy! So SIMPLE. I am that, there's no doubt!
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

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