What to 'do'?

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Ananda
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Ananda » Mon May 16, 2011 4:52 am

Hello Riken :)

Thanks for keeping us all updated, it's always very uplifting to hear your experience.

I'm giving my direct experience so that I'm being as authentic as possible
I know you are. :)


every time theres really no recognition
You can give up. Relax. Give up trying to recognize. Give up the idea of recognition, of seeing the Self. Relax now. Let go of every thought about the Self, every notion. Don't touch those thoughts which urge you on to recognize the Self. These are all just ideas- let go of them. Let them all go by now. Don't let anything touch you.

The self can't be seen, it's just not possible.
:)

Stop trying to see the Self now. Relax your vision. Let your mind go quietly. Give up your efforting and your straining to recognize the Self. These ideas of recognizing the Self, of seeing the Self, of needing to, of wanting to, let these ideas fade off. Let everything pass through you. You are different from everything you experience. You are different from the world outside, and different from the world inside - from your sense perception, from your feelings, your emotions, your thoughts and notions. You are different from all of these. Remain as yourself only now, and relax.

How to remain as oneself? There is no how here, because you cannot not be yourself. There is no practice here, only knowledge, knowledge of what is already true and obvious in your immediate experience. You are different from everything else, you are something different- unperceived, unseen, unrecognized but different. You are also different from the thought, from the injunction, 'remain as yourself only', so let this idea also pass away in your mind. Stay quiet, don't try, don't practice, let go of everything that you can see and know. Let everything pass through you as clouds pass through sky.

All of your experience is constantly changing. Your mind is going silent, at a trickle, or noisy- it is never staying the same. Your experience through the senses is constantly changing- the world is moving all of the time, objects are coming and going, it never stays the same. The witness which you cannot see, which you cannot recognize, always remains the same. Let everything change, let everything pass away, relax, don't cling, don't even cling to the idea of not clinging. Everything is passing away, but you are not passing away. Know this, it is already true, only give up the notion that it is not, give up clinging to things which are constantly passing away. Let them pass away without fuss, let the mind go silent. Let the world go silent by not thinking about it - all of its changes are obvious in silence, the transience of everything is obvious when the mind is perfectly still. In this silence, in this serene mind, everything is changing like the surface of the sea. Everything except you. In this silent mind, the intransient, the permanent, is always there, knowledge is already there. In this silence, in this quietude, both the impermanent and the permanent are already known.

You do not need to think about realizing this. You do not need to try and recognize this, neither practice nor effort. All of these are ideas, mentations, let the mind settle in its essential, quiet nature. Free yourself from the need, from the desire, to become free. Let go of the idea of liberation, of self-realization. Let the mind be peaceful. Let all the world pass in front of you, let it change away, don't touch it- be free and remain quiet, silent, and composed.
Every time an experience or emotion or thought or whatever comes up it is seen. Every time it is seen I try to discriminate notice the witness of it.
This trying, this trying to discriminate the witness, this trying too is seen- this trying too is impermanent. Let go of it, let it go. Every time an experience or emotion or a thought comes up, it is seen. Every time you try to discriminate the Self, it is seen. Let go of the seen, it passes away constantly, it is never the same. Let go of trying, this is just a concept, an idea, a packet of energy, of attention and intention that surges and dissipates within your awareness.
Asking questions doesn't seem necessary
This is very good. :)

Maybe I still think I'm the body??
Let go of this idea, let is pass into silence- it doesn't belong to you.
I remember Mooji saying "Even the 'I am' is observed - by what is it observed?" So it feels like there is another step to the self.
Steps are endless. You already exist now, there are no steps towards your being, there is only the removal of the false, of what is not you. Everything you experience is not you. Everything you see and know is not you. Let go of what is not you, don't worry about it, don't bother with it. Don't worry about Mooji's question.

I don't really know what to do anymore
Don't bother with the idea of doing something else, and don't bother with the idea of giving up doing something else. Stay quiet, don't bother, let your mind be quiet, let it be and become quiet. Don't move out, don't venture or purchase any idea- none of them are you, and none of them can bring you closer to yourself than you already truly are. Let all thoughts pass through you like the wind, stay motionless like a rock, stay in your self, in your center, in your own existence. Drop 'How?' and 'When?', don't associate with them anymore, you simply Are.
the realization that there was actually no 'me' has made me socially awkward, humorless, induced very strange physical changes such as incredibly deep sleep and short + long term memory loss.
You realized there was no 'me'. And now there is a me which is socially awkward, humorless, and with poor memory. You who realized there was no 'me' are different from this 'me', and from this new me which is socially awkward etc. This socially awkward me is as real as the 'me' which you realized to be non-existent! Neither are real, don't buy it.

I just reread the above statement, how come even though theres no me theres still a me in resistance?
It's a chimera, let it go. It's a bundle of thoughts preoccupying your attention. Don't bother with it, let it pass away. Don't worry! Relax! :D




You can stop. Stop and relax. Relax and rest into yourself, let go of the reigns. Let everything else take care of itself, let everything pass you by. Don't touch any idea which passes through the mind, let them all go about their business, and there is silence, and knowledge. Don't look for anything else, give up looking for anything, give up grasping. Relax. Your existence is already present.



:)


Edit-

I was reading an old reply from Kiki and the part which really stood out for me was "Instead of looking for the witness as an object, just REST as that knowing." Suddenly I was just overcome with joy! So SIMPLE. I am that, there's no doubt!


:lol:


Stay there!

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 am

Riken wrote:I was reading an old reply from Kiki and the part which really stood out for me was "Instead of looking for the witness as an object, just REST as that knowing." Suddenly I was just overcome with joy! So SIMPLE. I am that, there's no doubt!
Great. However, its important to face any unwanted social awkwardness. Look upon it as a great opportunity to grow in "Being". When thoughts & feelings that make you feel socially awkward arise, stay with them (don't try & fight, flight or freeze).... try and instead enter the inner-body without judging any thoughts/feelings that arise. If you can do all this as the non-judgemental witness, those fears will dissolve. The negative judgements coming from the Mind is want makes negative thoughts-feelings persist and stick around. By facing them consciously, the illusion will dissolve. If you keep resisting or hiding from any social awkwardness it can't dissolve... it will persist.

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Mon May 16, 2011 9:32 am

Ananda,

Why the trenchant towards the usage of the word “practice” in your last post? Is it really necessary to be so pedantic with our language?
Ananda wrote:There is no practice here, only knowledge, knowledge of what is already true and obvious in your immediate experience.
Ananda wrote:Stay quiet, don't try, don't practice, let go of everything that you can see and know.
Ananda wrote:You do not need to try and recognize this, neither practice nor effort.
Lets not forget, this forum is in a large part devoted to a book titled - “Practicing the Power of Now”.

Image

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Mon May 16, 2011 1:37 pm

ashley72 wrote:Ananda,

Why the trenchant towards the usage of the word “practice” in your last post? Is it really necessary to be so pedantic with our language?
Ananda wrote:There is no practice here, only knowledge, knowledge of what is already true and obvious in your immediate experience.
Ananda wrote:Stay quiet, don't try, don't practice, let go of everything that you can see and know.
Ananda wrote:You do not need to try and recognize this, neither practice nor effort.
Lets not forget, this forum is in a large part devoted to a book titled - “Practicing the Power of Now”.

It's not that Ananda is against practice Ashley... he's an advaita guy which says that we are already free, that no practice is needed to be what we already are, just a slight altering of attention if that.

There comes a point where you realize practice isn't necessary, it's an illusion, a helpful one at that when you believe your a separate person trying to get someTHING, but the idea that you can 'practice' your way to what you already are is just a dream appearing in what you already are.

You are obviously aware of all that comes and goes in front of you already, so you are already awareness / presence / consciousness and not the things in front of you that are being perceived.... how could you be?

So practice is done away with upon seeing that there is actually no separate 'you' who can practice anyway.
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

hanss
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by hanss » Mon May 16, 2011 2:28 pm

Riken wrote:So practice is done away with upon seeing that there is actually no separate 'you' who can practice anyway.
There seems to be a you that still is around and someone is getting frustrated, maybe the same one would benefit from reading Chapter 8 in the mentioned book - Acceptance and Surrender. I need it too. Again and again. Even if Little Me does not exist, he sure can cause trouble... especially if he is trying to run the show.
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Mon May 16, 2011 3:15 pm

Riken, you seem to be very comfortable with the advaita teaching method. I find the approach very black and white. That's not necessarily a bad thing... just not my preference. Advaita might be the only way for some folk.

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Mon May 16, 2011 3:26 pm

hanss wrote:
Riken wrote:So practice is done away with upon seeing that there is actually no separate 'you' who can practice anyway.
There seems to be a you that still is around and someone is getting frustrated, maybe the same one would benefit from reading Chapter 8 in the mentioned book - Acceptance and Surrender. I need it too. Again and again. Even if Little Me does not exist, he sure can cause trouble... especially if he is trying to run the show.
Chapter 9 Transforming Illnesss & Suffering is also a great chapter, some good advice on the way of the cross - enlightenment through suffering. Means to be forced into the kingdom of heaven kicking and screaming. You finally surrender because you can't stand the pain anymore, but the pain could go on for a long time until this happens.

Hanss, Good distinction you make - "even if the little me doesnt exist".... But Gee that "suffering" sure feels real, especially when he's trying to run the show! :)

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Ananda
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Ananda » Mon May 16, 2011 4:42 pm

Hello Ashley :)
Ananda,

Why the trenchant towards the usage of the word “practice” in your last post? Is it really necessary to be so pedantic with our language?
My posts in this thread were basically tailored specifically for Riken and his experience, as I said in my first post;
It's quite a pivotal point that you're at, I think, because the answer to your question, 'what to do?' is that there is nothing to do anymore; the very notion of being a doer is redundant for you. You can't practice anything anymore, nor can it really be said there is something new to realize, because these reinforce the false idea of being an agent of actions (ego)
I'm not against the idea of practice, because without practice the mind can't be purified and brought under control. Riken is able to silence his mind, so for him the very idea of having to practice would now serve as a distraction in his mind instead. The reason for this is because the idea of practicing presupposes a practitioner, some method, and a goal not yet reached. These ideas too all have to be let go of eventually, otherwise there is a constant denial of the actuality of one's being and a grasping towards some future state, some ideal that one feels deprived of currently.

As you say to Riken, it does seem very black and white, but really it isn't, because I wouldn't use this type of repetitive language for everybody, only for those who see the redundancy of practice. In advaita there are different levels of working and teaching at depending upon the experience of the person- the teaching is adjusted to meet the experience.

Hope I've cleared that up. :)

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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by goldieflower » Mon May 16, 2011 6:27 pm

mooji says there are times he contradicts himself depending on the person. Great teachers teach you where you are, so the message can be heard.

Thank you, Ananda. As you might have guessed, goldie is wiping eyes again!!! :D

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Mon May 16, 2011 7:30 pm

All roads lead to Rome, just some point out that your already in Rome.

:D
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Ralph » Mon May 16, 2011 10:01 pm

" Without doing what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't realize that we didn't need to do it. "

When it comes to practice, I think this quote from Peter Fenner that Andy posted in another thread answers it quite well:

"One of the most delightful paradoxes is that at the end of the nondual path we realize that we haven't travelled any distance -- that no path has been traversed and that we haven't attained "anything." But we also realize that if we hadn't believed that there was a path and made the effort we have made, we wouldn't have arrived at the point we are at. Even though we realize that our struggle and commitment has been pointless, in the absence of this effort we would still be drifting in the illusion that there actually is somewhere to go and something to achieve. Without doing what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't realize that we didn't need to do it. "

~ Peter Fenner

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Mon May 16, 2011 11:39 pm

Ananda,

Thanks. You've cleared that up. I'll admit it's my ignorance on this particular teaching.

I discovered that our true nature can't ultimately be practiced and that any practice eventually should fall away, I found this out for myself, after meditating for six months and feeling the need to bring meditation into everyday life. I do know it's very important for a newbie to practice or fake it till they make it. :D I still need to practice or remind myself to be present on a daily basis. I also need to sometimes man up and face some inner fears still bubbling away. A great relief and freedom opens up when I do face those fears.

I do think Riken might still need to face up to some social fears. I'm not sure a passive approach is the best approach. At some stage he needs to walk thru that illusionary door blocking his way. He needs to do it consciously of course and that is The key to unlocking the door marked social fear, but he also needs to realize at some stage he will need to witness some unwanted feelings emotions & thoughts arise as he walks thru that opening. He might have to repeat that process again & again until it's fully conscious and the minds negative habit is dissolved.

Lastly, Maybe the forum should have separate dedicated section for more black and white (Advaita) approaches, I think most of the disagreement that springs up from time to time, stems from the confusion between different teaching styles.
Last edited by ashley72 on Tue May 17, 2011 2:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Tue May 17, 2011 12:08 am

Hey.

I don't think it's necessary to split the forum up like that, whats the point? Don't often see many disagreements, just bits of confusion here and there, some things being lost in translation and dodgy advice being given, but that is the nature of the internet! We are all here on a forum, totally anonymous unless we choose otherwise, so it's really not an easy job to convey truth in such a way and for anyone who can it's really impressive.

I have already put attention onto social awkwardness, it doesn't make it change, however I don't much care for external circumstances now, because I don't see myself as a person striving in the world, so whether it clears up or not is of not much importance. I'l have to see what happens. :)
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Tue May 17, 2011 12:28 am

Riken wrote: I have already put attention onto social awkwardness, it doesn't make it change, however I don't much care for external circumstances now, because I don't see myself as a person striving in the world, so whether it clears up or not is of not much importance. I'l have to see what happens. :)
This attention you mention - seems to be still filtering thru the mind. Either during the episode or afterwards. Your true nature doesn't see social awkwardness - a conscious moment, won't be judging that moment as awkward. Therefore, awkwardness and consciousness don't co-exist. It's a mind label which ultimately creates the minds pre-conditioned limitation or fear to certain situations. Social awkwardness should eventually drop away when consciously faced. Striving doesn't need to happen, because each moment comes and goes without any effort. However, if a social moment arrives and you walk away or resist that moment - the conditioned fear will persist and further limit your freedom until you face it again. If you go and hide in a cave that social moment may not arrive of course, but is that freedom?

This is why suffering is so important in the awakening process. Suffering can take you kicking & screaming towards freedom of the suffering itself. If done consciously. :D

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Tue May 17, 2011 2:14 am

Riken wrote:I don't think it's necessary to split the forum up like that, whats the point?
The point would be to generate greater clarity... less disconnect going on between the different teaching styles perhaps.

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