What to 'do'?

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Kutso
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Kutso » Tue May 17, 2011 6:47 am

ashley72 wrote:Therefore, awkwardness and consciousness don't co-exist.
Well, actually they do.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Tue May 17, 2011 7:55 am

Kutso wrote:
ashley72 wrote:Therefore, awkwardness and consciousness don't co-exist.
Well, actually they do.
Kutso,
I apologise - if this statement is lacking. I was trying to convey - that social awkwardness is a "negative" judgment and label formed by the mind. A mind label or form relating to social awkwardness, is itself a negative phantom, which will eventually drop away when consciously faced and can actually transmute any suffering resulting from social awkwardness (unconscious labelling) into consciousness.
Therefore, unconscious labelling and consciousness don't co-exist.
Does that make sense?

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Kutso
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Kutso » Tue May 17, 2011 3:09 pm

ashley72 wrote:Therefore, unconscious labelling and consciousness don't co-exist.


Does that make sense?
Actually, no. There can be no labeling without consciousness. Labeling depends on consciousness.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Tue May 17, 2011 11:27 pm

When i use consciousness here - it refers to a higher state of consciousness, one that watchers the thoughts with space around them. When I refer to "unconscious" labelling - that is a lower state of consciousness - a state that identifies only with thoughts. There is no space around the thoughts in a lower state. Consciousness is always there of course, thoughts forms come and go in consciousness.

But the state of your consciousness can change from low to high.

Therefore, a lower state of consciousness and a higher state of consciousness don't co-exist in the sa
e moment
Does that make sense?

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Wed May 18, 2011 12:10 am

On reflection, co-exist is a poor choice of word here. There is a "shift" occurring from a lower to higher state of consciousness which allows the transmuting of the phantom mind label (social awkwardness).

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Salem
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Salem » Wed May 18, 2011 1:40 am

This might be less a question of what consciousness is and more an issue of mere semantics.
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Wed May 18, 2011 4:18 am

ashley72 wrote:When i use consciousness here - it refers to a higher state of consciousness, one that watchers the thoughts with space around them. When I refer to "unconscious" labelling - that is a lower state of consciousness - a state that identifies only with thoughts. There is no space around the thoughts in a lower state. Consciousness is always there of course, thoughts forms come and go in consciousness.

But the state of your consciousness can change from low to high.

Therefore, a lower state of consciousness and a higher state of consciousness don't co-exist in the sa
e moment
Does that make sense?
I would be careful of investing too much into ideas about 'higher' or 'lower' states of consciousness.
Truly there is only one consciousness and we are that.
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Wed May 18, 2011 4:49 am

Riken wrote:I would be careful of investing too much into ideas about 'higher' or 'lower' states of consciousness.
Truly there is only one consciousness and we are that.
You're right there is only one universal Consciousness... but shifting the view of Local consciousness so its more spacious is where identification with thought can be severed, the thought then loses its power over you and quickly subsides, because your no longer revitalizing the mind through strong objectification of thought. Eckhart Tolle points to it with these two quotes below.
The beginning of freedom is the realization that you are not “the thinker”. The moment you start watching the thinker, a higher level of consciousness becomes activated. You then begin to realize that there is a vast realm of intelligence beyond thought, that thought is only a tiny aspect of that intelligence. You also realise that all the things that truly matter – beauty, love, creativity, joy, inner peace – arise from beyond the mind. You begin to awaken. Eckhart Tolle
Or
The moment you start watching the thinker, a higher level of consciousness becomes activated. So when you listen to a thought, you are aware not only of the thought but also of yourself as the witness of the thought. A new dimension of consciousness has come in. As you listen to the thought, you feel a conscious presence – your deeper self – behind or underneath the thought, as it were. The thought then loses its power over you and quickly subsides, because you are no longer energizing the mind through identification with it. This is the beginning of the end of involuntary and compulsive thinking.Eckhart Tolle

If I was to try and represent it graphically it would look something like this.




Lower state of Consciousness


Image


Higher state of Consciousness


Image

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Sighclone
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Sighclone » Wed May 18, 2011 8:06 am

Good work, Riken...thanks again Ananda for being here and devoting so very much time. Your posts are a blessing to everyone.

Riken -

Don't forget that it's OK to take a vacation from spirituality. Moreover, you can, by the way, still be "your old self." By this I mean that the personality of Riken still is very functional (and maybe even more fun, since it is the character on the stage, as you note in your signature.) But, of course, somewhat changed, depending on the density of your ego. Small egoic pleasures can still be enjoyed. The ego hijacks Awareness before awakening, completely, because it does have a few fleeting baubles to toss out. These are usually kind of "organic" i.e. having an extra piece of fudge, enjoying sex, sleeping in late, finishing a project and feeling good about it, etc. Some pleasure we associate with the ego actually have some of the features of unawakened life, like compassion...you can still feel that without adding any particle of judgement. None of those small pleasures now need to become taboo. Let them fire up as they appear to need to...get lost in the dream for a weekend...and don't worry, not one particle of ignorance will re-form...you will not suddenly fall back asleep...stillness does not vanish, and if it seems to, you appear to have a simple method of returning to it. Treat yourself to a holiday from the deep grind...that is not a dualistic "sin." My personal belief (from experience and from reading) is that neural pathways and new brainwave frequencies need time to stabilize. Don't get hooked by "spiritual bypassing." Read "Embodying your Realization" here: http://www.johnwelwood.com/articlesandinterviews.htm

Final steps are always received passively, delivered by Grace. Trust your Source. Let it be.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Kutso
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Kutso » Wed May 18, 2011 8:33 am

Ashley,

These words of Eckhart are foremost directed at spiritual newcomers. There is no high and low consciousness. There is ONLY consciousness. If it is one thing I've learned (thanks Ananda for pointing it out), is that the spiritual seeker must eventually drop all ideas of separation to recognize that there is no separation.
In the case of Riken, I hardly think he has any use of the concept of high and low consciousness.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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ashley72
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by ashley72 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:44 am

Kutso wrote:These words of Eckhart are foremost directed at spiritual newcomers.
Would that somehow lessen the value of the pointer?
Kutso wrote:There is no high and low consciousness
You may be correct.

On a personal level...Tolles pointers have assisted me in watching my own thoughts come and go... And helped me connect with my true nature.
Kutso wrote:If it is one thing I've learned (thanks Ananda for pointing it out), is that the spiritual seeker must eventually drop all ideas of separation to recognize that there is no separation.
I'm not sure how a pointer of lower & higher state of consciousness to describe a state of watching your thoughts coming & going within consciousness - Is creating further separation. As the pointers purpose is to bring about realization you are the witnessing presence of all things... Including your thoughts, feelings, emotions etc.

How did Kutso drop all ideas of spiritual (Mind) seeking? Personally I can't drop thoughts, that would energize them. Any resistance would just make them persist. I listen to them impartially... and nothing more.

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Kutso
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Kutso » Wed May 18, 2011 12:48 pm

ashley72 wrote:Would that somehow lessen the value of the pointer?
The pointers are still good, just not for Riken. The thing with spirituality is that you can't give the same advice to all people, simply because all people are in different stages of spiritual progress. That's why Sages through times have given advice to someone and then given a totally different and seeming contradicting advice to someone else.
ashley72 wrote:On a personal level...Tolles pointers have assisted me in watching my own thoughts come and go... And helped me connect with my true nature.
Sure. I'm not saying that Tolles pointers are not valid. They have helped me in the past as well. But it came to a point where the pointers were no longer helpful for me and I had to follow new pointers.
ashley72 wrote:I'm not sure how a pointer of lower & higher state of consciousness to describe a state of watching your thoughts coming & going within consciousness - Is creating further separation.
Maybe it's not creating further separation, but it is still a concept of separation because of dividing consciousness in two, and not helpful for Riken who has obviously already come to this conclusion.
ashley72 wrote:How did Kutso drop all ideas of spiritual (Mind) seeking? Personally I can't drop thoughts, that would energize them. Any resistance would just make them persist. I listen to them impartially... and nothing more.
Firstly, I have not dropped all ideas of spiritual seeking. Secondly, how is it done? Well, it is actually not that much that you drop the ideas. It's more like you don't associate with them. Like Ananda so eloquently put it to me, you don't put your hat on them. :) It has nothing to do with resisting them. You just don't interest yourself in them.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

alex
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by alex » Wed May 18, 2011 12:58 pm

Hey Riken, seems like you are chasing what somehow found me, though I didn't want it! Has been going on for a few days now, this constant awareness. It seems so simple.. who knows when that final wake up will come for you, but I do have a feeling that any kind of forcing will only hinder it.
How come you are trying to find the seer? That's like an eyeball trying to look at itself. One thing that seems to deepen my current experience is to sit and completely let go of all control then feel the I Am that I am. Open your eyes, what is there? That's awake. I can't find the seer, in fact it mostly feels like there is only what is seen and no seer. I feel like I don't have a bloody head!
I think the wake up comes by Grace. ..

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Riken
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by Riken » Wed May 18, 2011 4:21 pm

alex wrote:Hey Riken, seems like you are chasing what somehow found me, though I didn't want it! Has been going on for a few days now, this constant awareness. It seems so simple.. who knows when that final wake up will come for you, but I do have a feeling that any kind of forcing will only hinder it.
How come you are trying to find the seer? That's like an eyeball trying to look at itself. One thing that seems to deepen my current experience is to sit and completely let go of all control then feel the I Am that I am. Open your eyes, what is there? That's awake. I can't find the seer, in fact it mostly feels like there is only what is seen and no seer. I feel like I don't have a bloody head!
I think the wake up comes by Grace. ..
Hi, the seer can be known, not phenomenally, but it's presence can be 'felt' / 'seen'.
It's also seen that the seer was present through everything even though I had ideas that it wasn't :?

Just chillin' now, nothing else to 'see' here :D
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

snowheight
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Re: What to 'do'?

Post by snowheight » Wed May 18, 2011 6:05 pm

Riken wrote: There comes a point where you realize practice isn't necessary, it's an illusion, a helpful one at that when you believe your a separate person trying to get someTHING, but the idea that you can 'practice' your way to what you already are is just a dream appearing in what you already are.
Who realizes this? You are this you are everything that is not this and you are not any of it.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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