There is no truth

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There is no truth

Postby hanss » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:15 am

See the subject title and this post as a play with thoughts, even though I'm serious. An alternative title could be The truth is dynamic and is changing every moment. There is no ground to stand on. No right teaching or teachers. No concept or belief that is more or less true. No pointers that are good pointers. A pointer can be good for one person in one moment and a distraction/hindrance the next moment. An ego structure can be built continously and dissolve continously. We are searching for the truth, that which is always there behind everything. But that is not there to be found, it is changing all the time. It's dynamic and can not be found or hold on to. Have you awakened? Good. Fantastic. But are you awake right now? Or are you holding on to the practice or moment connected to the experience? Your knowledge about spirituality? Or the teaching that fits with your experiences? I do. I want something to hold on to. Security. The right way. The truth. But just imagine, there is no such thing. There is no real you or false you. No Self or self. It's all concepts and labels. It is all changing every moment. There is no ground to stand on and there will never be. The peace beyond all understanding is moving. Always. And the only way to feel that peace is to move, roll with the flow. Hold on to nothing, including Advaita, awareness or sages. Or Maybe ET is right. There is only Now. Barry Long is more brutal. Everything outside now is intellectual garbage. And so is this :)
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Re: There is no truth

Postby Yumcha » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:45 pm

Yes, absolutley, the Truth is in your post.

Perhaps this is why there is so much emphasis on mindfullness, and being in the moment. Where else does the "focal point of you" exist?

Excellent post hanss.
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Re: There is no truth

Postby snowheight » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:10 pm

hanss wrote: I want something to hold on to. Security. The right way. The truth. But just imagine, there is no such thing.

Ha Ha! YES! Perfect! -- You have embraced the paradox that the truth is there is no truth. Do you see? If we accept the statement that there is no truth as truth we've contradicted the statement we've just accepted.

It is another statement of this condition that the sages can "point" at something that they cannot describe. We can talk and think around it ... right up to the point where we can understand that we will never construct a line of reasoning that leads directly right up to it.

What you say of the impermanence of form hanss, this is one of those pointers.

hanss wrote:We are searching for the truth, that which is always there behind everything. But that is not there to be found, it is changing all the time. It's dynamic and can not be found or hold on to.


It cannot be found although it is always there. We cannot hold onto it although our very lives are intertwined with it. It is changing all the time in that it is the one thing that does not change in a Now in which change is the only certainty.

hanss wrote:The peace beyond all understanding is moving. Always.

A dynamic stillness. A roaring quiet. A traveler who is always at home. It is the ultimate freedom of no attachment. The unique and extreme wealth of abject poverty and the ultimate power of complete surrender.
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Re: There is no truth

Postby hanss » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:21 pm

Thank you for comments. I'm not so positive, find it scary.
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
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Re: There is no truth

Postby Rick » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:30 pm

My friend asks this question "Is there an ultimate, absolute truth?"

If you answer no, then there is a contradiction. To say there is no absolute truth would be an absolute truth contradicting the notion that there is no absolute truth.
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Re: There is no truth

Postby hanss » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:44 pm

Then it might be better to answer like the politicans do. :)

"I find it very postive that you ask this question. We really like questions like this and it is very important to ask them.... .....
.............. ....................... that is how we all make progress.... .....
.... we are currently discussing .......... .... working together ...............
............. serious approach ......................
... our highest priority ..... ..... ......"
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
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Re: There is no truth

Postby snowheight » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:58 am

Rick wrote:My friend asks this question "Is there an ultimate, absolute truth?"

If you answer no, then there is a contradiction. To say there is no absolute truth would be an absolute truth contradicting the notion that there is no absolute truth.


Yes. In all seriousness. It really is all that simple.

hanss wrote:Then it might be better to answer like the politicans do. :)

"I find it very postive that you ask this question. We really like questions like this and it is very important to ask them.... .....
.............. ....................... that is how we all make progress.... .....
.... we are currently discussing .......... .... working together ...............
............. serious approach ......................
... our highest priority ..... ..... ......"


This is as funny as it is insightful, and almost, in way ... sort of tragic ...

Rick wrote:If you answer no, then there is a contradiction. To say there is no absolute truth would be an absolute truth contradicting the notion that there is no absolute truth.


... as the final, end-all, be-all, unequivocal, machine-gun-of-truth answer to this question is CLEARLY seen to be:

Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.
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Re: There is no truth

Postby Yumcha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:36 am

... as the final, end-all, be-all, unequivocal, machine-gun-of-truth answer to this question is CLEARLY seen to be:

Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.[/quote]

Are you absolutely sure? How could we know for sure?
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Re: There is no truth

Postby Rick » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:53 am

snowheight wrote:
Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.


Bill, I take Absolute Truth to be synonymous with Being...the Bottom Line of everything. Not the Being of belief, of which does not exist. But in the sense of Being that is directly experienced as That which animates this Being writing to you and all that existences. Does it change your equation in any way?
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Re: There is no truth

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:24 am

Truth is the totality of both yes and no.

What is seen in this moment is defined by perspective, ability and willingness.

I agree with Hans it's always there, but suggest it's our perspective, ability and willingness that is in motion.

There is nothing to fear in this.

Politicians or anyone seeking to portray only elements of the 'all' of a thing or situation highlight their preferred or known perspective through their ability and/or willingness.

If you bring this notion to ET's ego= enemy, obstacle, means to an end
or consciousness = acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm
it's actually quite easy to see the perspective in action as only a part of the whole truth of any matter.

Imagine a world where leaders responded out of consciousness ... :idea:
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Re: There is no truth

Postby Yumcha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:15 am

[quote="Rick"] The sense of Being that is directly experienced as That which animates this Being writing to you and all that exists.

Interestingly, this could be a pointer to the existance of "the" Absolute Truth, however, another group would divert this line of inquiry, by reminding one of the concept of the non-concept of Void.

Which brings one back to the paradox Snowheight spoke of, "Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth."

Using the word "absolute" here, would infer that there was solid tangible proof...?
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Re: There is no truth

Postby snowheight » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:14 am

Rick wrote:
snowheight wrote:
Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.


Bill, I take Absolute Truth to be synonymous with Being...the Bottom Line of everything. Not the Being of belief, of which does not exist. But in the sense of Being that is directly experienced as That which animates this Being writing to you and all that existences. Does it change your equation in any way?


Rick, do you recognize (in the intellectual sense) any conceptual contradiction in what you've written here?

If you follow Tolle in his fashioning of a word such as Being into a pointer, and purpose to form the expression "Absolute Truth" into such a pointer, and ask me if I feel or see what you are referring to as opposed to understanding it intellectually, then yes, that changes the equation -- by the way, the prime mover of the new equation is what I've been able to experience about you from your contributions here.

From my experience the intellectual attack leads to the dead-end of paradox ... and if you want me to explain further how "Yes and no" really is the end of the intellectual road I'd be happy to, although I don't think that such would be a genuine response to your question which is why I tentatively refrain ... although the wide-eyed teddy-bear cartoon character in me has his machine-gun-of-truth all cocked and ready to go! :lol:
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Re: There is no truth

Postby snowheight » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:19 am

Yumcha wrote:
snowheight wrote:... as the final, end-all, be-all, unequivocal, machine-gun-of-truth answer to this question is CLEARLY seen to be:

Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.


Are you absolutely sure? How could we know for sure?


Bring on the rack ye knaves! ... we have some words that stare defiantly without yielding their secrets!... some coercion is necessary!

First of all, to banish absolute truth using absolute certainty would be like when the Colombians let Pablo Escobar build his own prison ... mayhem and chaos would be the likely result.

But, as I did craft the presentation I will be happy to share with you how I've arrived at this conclusion.

In one sense, the problem is one of semantics, as there is no definition of truth which is non-relative --- there is no "yes", without a "no", no "true" without a corresponding "false". What is true is defined only in relation to what is false. When the modifier "absolute" is interpreted as applying to this aspect of the word "truth", we see the phrase "Absolute Truth" as an oxymoron.

But to stop there would be only part of the story, because there is, of course, another interpretation of the phrase, which is suggested by hanss originally -- a proposition of truth which never changes based on context, circumstances or time. A statement of fact that requires no qualification.

Well, but now we have the opposite problem ... that is just too easy, for example:

"There is life on Earth"
"I was born before I will die"

These are facts, and while they do require assumptions, arguing about them is a complete waste of time.

So what did I mean when I denied the existence of "Absolute Truth"? ... well, obviously I wasn't referring to simple factual propositions based on artifacts such as a temporal relation, but in the context of what hanss wrote, I inferred a more limited definition of the term:

hanss wrote:No concept or belief that is more or less true. No pointers that are good pointers. A pointer can be good for one person in one moment and a distraction/hindrance the next moment. ... We are searching for the truth, that which is always there behind everything. But that is not there to be found, it is changing all the time.


So I took, by way of context, hanss's reference to the "Absolute Truth" to mean "A spiritual belief or concept which defines that which is always there behind everything".

Tolle points us toward the "Now" and "Being" and "Consciousness", but takes pains to disclaim any explanation which can be understood by the mind. From my limited self-education in spiritual matters, it seems apparent that he was not the first to come to the conclusion that whatever it is that is "always there beyond everything", it is beyond our ability to conceptualize it. Capra was one of the authors which introduced me to the idea.

O.k., now I get to point my machine gun at you Yumcha ...

But what if this situation is simply a function of ignorance? What if we were to discover some idea, some system of inter-locking concepts and facts and equations which would just make it all become crystal clear in an instant?

All one need do is contemplate the concept of non-duality to see how futile a hope this is ... now of course, first one has to accept the idea that our existence is dualistic. I look to Physics for my understanding of this: two persons traveling relative to each other will not agree on the length of a ruler held by one -- not only is this a very literal demonstration of the relative nature of our existence but it banishes forever the idea of "objective truth" ... but that is a digression, we are not speaking of "objective truth", merely "absolute truth" ( :lol:).

Anyway ... ok, so now, armed with the insight that our existence is a relative one and thus rooted in duality, we can circle back once more to this concept of a Perfect, Complete, non-dual Whole ... but wait a minute ... wouldn't such a non-dual "Whole" include EVERYTHING? ... including IMPerfection and INCompleteness? But how can that be? How can something that is the Absolute Truth embody falsehood? How could it not?

All conceptual roads seem to lead to one paradox or another ... such as the wave-particle nature of matter. Several other threads are plays on this idea.

What we are left with, is, of course, direct experience, which can consist of some formal practice or just the simple recognition of what we are and what is all around us. We don't need to believe that there is air to draw the next breath.

Some stop there and draw the conclusion that such a position naturally suggests an existence devoid of meaning. A boxing ring with no ropes ... the road with no rules. It seems to me that these are perspectives rooted in the conceptual. While these perspectives are never of course devoid of any genuine direct experience, perhaps it can be said that they are devoid of the recognition of this experience from within the perspective.
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Re: There is no truth

Postby Rick » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:35 pm

snowheight wrote:
Rick wrote:
snowheight wrote:
Yes and no. Yes there is an absolute truth and the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.


Bill, I take Absolute Truth to be synonymous with Being...the Bottom Line of everything. Not the Being of belief, of which does not exist. But in the sense of Being that is directly experienced as That which animates this Being writing to you and all that existences. Does it change your equation in any way?


Rick, do you recognize (in the intellectual sense) any conceptual contradiction in what you've written here?



Bill, I am honestly lost as to what you refer to here. This brings me up to what I first observed when I discovered this forum. The display of intellectual brilliance is sometimes dazzling, fascinating to observe but beyond me. I was never an intellectual. I never graduated high school because I skipped so many classes, finding it mostly boring, dry information I had no interest in learning about. In hindsight I realize that as I lay in the field by the river while my skipped classes were conducted without me, I unwittingly meditated through more class periods than attended. I have since educated myself in all the things I have had interest in but my mind does not work like so many of you guys trained in academia. Things are rather black and white for me. Life response is either of the mind or of no mind. I can't remember what I had for breakfast most days. My head is empty for the most part. I do read but only what interests, I watch and learn from all of life. What sticks sticks somewhere within and I never know what will come out of my mind. But for the life of me, I have no idea what your question refers to. I would be glad to hear your meaning.

Editing this in: I did read your post to Yumcha below mind and I get from it some of what you mean by conceptual contradiction. However, I would still love to hear, if possible, a nutshell, easily digested version of what you mean.
Last edited by Rick on Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is no truth

Postby hanss » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:14 pm

Rick wrote:...I take Absolute Truth to be synonymous with Being...

I like this.
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
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