Spill the beans

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alex
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Spill the beans

Post by alex » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:45 am

So c'mon tell tell tell, who actually has the abiding sense of alive peace that Eckhart describes enlightenment to be? Who has the abiding knowledge of what they truly are before form? I have many many periods of dancing as that alive, fluid awareness, but I wonder, when does it become abiding?
Is there that one final awakening that we really have no control over the occurence of?
Also, does anyone else find that after being presence for a while your attention naturally leaves 'you' and spreads out to include everything? I wonder if I take a step wrong here because it feels like I'm not aware of awareness anymore but become vividly aware of all the forms, noises and happenings. Kinda like I totally lose myself. Make any sense?

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Ananda
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by Ananda » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:27 am

Hello alex, good to hear from you. :)

who actually has the abiding sense of alive peace that Eckhart describes enlightenment to be?
Yep!

Who has the abiding knowledge of what they truly are before form?
Mhm!
I have many many periods of dancing as that alive, fluid awareness, but I wonder, when does it become abiding?
When all sense of difference that arises in the mind, between you and it, ceases. When you are looking on your experience as that fluid awareness, which really is already the case, and there is no sense of you being anything but that, then that is abiding, and that is knowledge. What comes in time goes in time, even ecstatic states of self-awareness, the Self always remains. Knowledge of that Self, knowledge that you are it and nothing else, is what liberates you from sorrow and separation, it's what gives the abiding sense of peace both when in self-awareness, or samadhi, and when you are fully involved in your current experience of form.
Is there that one final awakening that we really have no control over the occurence of?
Seeing that you are that awareness alone, then all sense of being an agent of action ceases- you cannot control or do anything, since you are not something capable of action, nor in need of action. When you try to control an experience you reinforce the idea that you are a separate agent, an ego, who can control and manipulate experiences. Recognise that all sense of ownership or control belongs to the mind, not to you. You are not bound, so you do not require liberation, you are simply a sea of awareness with no limitations. The scales fall from your eyes, so to speak, when you relinquish all claim to the body and mind by knowing yourself as the Seer of them, and the nature of the Seer become evident. Just as a snake sheds its skin, so do you cast off the apparent limitations of being an agent of action by the recognition of yourself as secondless, all-pervading awareness; which is not an action, but is knowledge, direct knowledge.

does anyone else find that after being presence for a while your attention naturally leaves 'you' and spreads out to include everything? I wonder if I take a step wrong here because it feels like I'm not aware of awareness anymore but become vividly aware of all the forms, noises and happenings. Kinda like I totally lose myself.
Recognise that by the very fact of the vivid awareness of all forms, noises and happenings, that awareness itself is still present. That there are subjective experiences is because you are there to experience them. Your nature never changes, it does not come and go, only experiences do, and you are the sole experiencer, the unchanging seer of a sea of changing things seen. You know your name, so you don't need to keep saying 'alex' in order to know it, you don't need to keep your name on your tongue all of the time. In the same way, you know you are the Self, you do not need to keep staying in self-awareness for you to know it. After abiding in the Self it becomes as familiar to you as your name- even more familiar, this is when knowledge breaks in, and knowledge permanently removes the ignorance which created the false impression of being anything but the Self in the first place.

When you have Self-knowledge you do not need to worry about holding on to states of self-awareness or being covered up by regular experiences; you know as the Self that you are the underlying substratum of the world of empirical experience and the formless ocean of self-awareness. You also know, ultimately, that there is no difference between all of your empirical experiences of the world 'outside', and the formless ocean of awareness, both are you, and you, the Self, alone exist. Here is freedom.



:)

snowheight
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by snowheight » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:28 pm

uh-oh ... looks like we better put out an ad for some people to come in here and do some work ... it is going to take WEEKS to pick up all these beans ... and worse, these are Samadhi beans ... do you know how low the yield is for Juan Valdez in his Samadhi fields? ... ya' can't even get a cup of that stuff at Starbucks ... this is going to cost a fortune! ... yeah ... thanks Ananda ... thanks alot!
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

alex
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by alex » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:24 pm

Ananda! That was beautiful and truly helped me understand. I have indeed found the unbound awareness that is me, I can stay in knowing it too but still confusion arises during the day. I guess tis normal though, this is just where I am! All will unfold as it should I'm sure.
Thank you
xx

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Re: Spill the beans

Post by runstrails » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:10 pm

Thank you Ananda for yet another gem of a post.
I want to highlight this part for it is so well written and captures something so important:
Ananda wrote:
You know your name, so you don't need to keep saying 'alex' in order to know it, you don't need to keep your name on your tongue all of the time. In the same way, you know you are the Self, you do not need to keep staying in self-awareness for you to know it. After abiding in the Self it becomes as familiar to you as your name- even more familiar, this is when knowledge breaks in, and knowledge permanently removes the ignorance which created the false impression of being anything but the Self in the first place.

When you have Self-knowledge you do not need to worry about holding on to states of self-awareness or being covered up by regular experiences; you know as the Self that you are the underlying substratum of the world of empirical experience and the formless ocean of self-awareness. You also know, ultimately, that there is no difference between all of your empirical experiences of the world 'outside', and the formless ocean of awareness, both are you, and you, the Self, alone exist. Here is freedom.
Realizing your true nature as the underlying substratum is not a state. Its a permanent knowledge. The rest are all states, confusion, doubt, samadhi, abiding as awareness etc..The realization is permanent, while the states come and go. And of course as Ananda puts it so well, ultimately there is no difference between your true nature and your experiences (states) and this too is the realization that you are all there is.

Ananda, question for you: Would you say (as Dennis Waite does)that while direct experience gives you a sense of your true nature, 'realization' actually happens in the mind?

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Re: Spill the beans

Post by karmarider » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:53 pm

Ananda, complete clarity, thanks.
alex wrote:So c'mon tell tell tell, who actually has the abiding sense of alive peace that Eckhart describes enlightenment to be?
Yes
Who has the abiding knowledge of what they truly are before form?
I don't.

I'm only talking about my experience here. I don't think it's about making this state of awareness "abiding." It's really hard for the ego to admit that this is a state, hehe, even though if I look deeply I can see that I don't really know what is a state and what is not a state.

Anxiety is gone, depression is gone. It's beautiful, there is sense of calm and peace, and I can operate very nicely from here.

And yet, from here, the inside-backwards inquiry can continue.

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Re: Spill the beans

Post by runstrails » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:47 pm

Hi alex,
In case it helps, here is a quote from Adya's emptiness dancing:
People ask me all the time, “When will it be over?” and I understand that they are equating freedom with not having to appreciate each moment consciously, not having to put anything of themselves out, not putting in the slightest effort, and so of course, the answer is “Never”.
We need to not waiver, to never waiver in our appreciation [of the truth].
As soon as you break your fidelity to the truth, you break yourself out of the freedom of Truth. As soon as anything---power, praise, person, place thing, outward love, respect, acknowledgement---becomes more important than the truth you will begin to suffer and feel separate.
A fierce commitment to truth is a moment to moment choice.
If you are waiting for this freedom of choice to become choiceless or automatic, you are not taking full responsibility for this freedom—the freedom to choose between truth and some comfortable story.

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Ananda
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by Ananda » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:53 pm

Hello runstrails,
Ananda, question for you: Would you say (as Dennis Waite does)that while direct experience gives you a sense of your true nature, 'realization' actually happens in the mind?
I'm not quite sure if I would word it in the same way, but I agree with Dennis' sentiment that ignorance lies in the mind. That ignorance lies in the form of superimposing objects onto the Self, which in turn create false ideas that multiply in the mind. Direct experience, in the form of discrimination between the Self and the not-Self immediately reveals the nature of superimposition and reveals all of those false ideas for what they are, and how they are contradicted by both direct experience and logical reasoning. I don't think realization itself occurs in the mind, however, as the mind is limited in its own sphere of concepts, objects, and the Self is neither a concept or an object of knowledge that the mind can grasp. I am reminded of the Upanishadic verse which describes the Self as that 'from which speech and mind turn back', since they cannot grasp or have knowledge of their own knower.

In the same way that the mind rationalizes the existence of the ego, however, the mind can be used, aided and supported by direct experience, as a tool for rooting out all of the false notions set up by ignorance.

So, in short, I think that realization, or knowledge, comes from direct experience of the Self only. Using the mind, however, is an effective, and perhaps necessary, tool for removing doubts and misconceptions that impede the aforementioned direct realization.


:)

runstrails
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by runstrails » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:15 am

Thank, Ananda. AS usual you are on the mark. That's a better way of phrasing what Dennis was alluding too :D

alex
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by alex » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 am

Ok... so I think I was wrongly equating enlightenment to be a constant state of self awareness, is that not what abiding in the Self means? Also, how Adyashanti says in the quote that you make an agreement to never stray from the truth... I took that to mean that you have a constant connection to the formless, he talks about dropping into the gut. Eckhart also talks of always feeling it through the inner body, right down deep... hmmm. Seems like a pretty impossible task to me, might leave that one to the masters. The mind can never understand I guess!

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Re: Spill the beans

Post by the key master » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:38 am

Ok... so I think I was wrongly equating enlightenment to be a constant state of self awareness, is that not what abiding in the Self means?
Right. How can you abide in what you already are? Is that just the mind abiding in a mind state of its own absence?

Abiding in the Self means whatever it means to you. If there is a personal or impersonal experience your mind is defining as abiding in the Self, lay it out for yourself to facilitate greater understanding.

Why would the mind be doing that? Is it trying to be what you already are?

Abide in the Self can be a useful pointer. It can be a way to point attention away from freight train egoic thinking. But at a certain point it becomes useful to ask some questions on dynamics. What is driving the "mental tendency to abide"? Is it fear? Is there a belief that suffering or thinking shouldnt be happening? Things like this.

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Ananda
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by Ananda » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:24 am

Hello alex,

I think I was wrongly equating enlightenment to be a constant state of self awareness, is that not what abiding in the Self means?
I think 'abiding in the Self' is a bit of a misnomer, really, since you can't not be abiding in the Self. It's a helpful pointer, though, since it points back to the essential nature of the Self as awareness, as opposed to all of the notions and ideas arising in the mind.

No states are constant, not even samadhi. Enlightenment is the knowledge that you are beyond all of the states, and beyond the need for states, even samadhi! That knowledge does come from the unbound awareness that you've realized- since the unbound awareness is always present as the unchanging background for all of the different states and experiences you have.

Enlightenment is synonymous with that unbound awareness; it is free from all distinctions, all impurities, all doubt and fear: it is pure knowledge, absolute being, and it is you. All of these different words like enlightenment and awareness are just other names for you, the Self.
you have a constant connection to the formless
You don't have a connection to the formless, you are the formless. It is the mind which recedes and then stirs within you, the mind which seeks a connection with the formless and feels like it must abide within you. You contain all experiences, the experience of mind and the experience of no-mind. You contain within you awareness of all objects, and also awareness of yourself as the unbounded Self. Abiding in the Self happens in you, and so does your experience of the objective world. Going in and out of Self awareness also happens within you, the Self. Know you are that in which all the states occur and contradict each other, and cancel one another out; only you are constant. Enlightenment is not a state, it is simply what you are, your nature as the unbound Seer of all states and changes. Knowing this as yourself is enlightenment, it removes any uncertainty that you are anything but that- all of the limitations fall away, the limited self was nothing but the absence of knowing this. Now you know it. Dive deep into your being and you'll see that this knowledge is already there, shining like a stainless diamond. You'll see.



:)

snowheight
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by snowheight » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:06 pm

Ananda wrote:Direct experience, in the form of discrimination between the Self and the not-Self immediately reveals the nature of superimposition and reveals all of those false ideas for what they are, and how they are contradicted by both direct experience and logical reasoning.
I read "the false idea" as being an identification with body and mind ... but Ananda, what do you mean by the not-Self?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Ananda
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by Ananda » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:13 pm

snowheight,
what do you mean by the not-Self?
In terms of self-enquiry, the not-Self would be any object, any object of knowledge, be it a sensory experience or an idea. The dichotomy of Self vs not-Self is a temporary one, useful for self-enquiry.

:)

snowheight
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Re: Spill the beans

Post by snowheight » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:25 pm

Ananda wrote:snowheight,
what do you mean by the not-Self?
In terms of self-enquiry, the not-Self would be any object, any object of knowledge, be it a sensory experience or an idea. The dichotomy of Self vs not-Self is a temporary one, useful for self-enquiry.

:)
Thanks for that. Dogs do love their bones!
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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