The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

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Lowrey
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The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by Lowrey » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:17 pm

hi everybody

you know me already, I opened a thread a while ago titled "I feel ripped of and mat at Eckhart Tolle". My basic story is that I been through a hard childhood, started to read PoN at age of 22. I was never interested in spirituality or "enlightenment", but I knew I had some unresolved issues and wanted to release them. For a 1,5 year, I was feeling great, following my dreams, focused, "present" as you call it.

after that, during a hangover, I been through one of the worst experiences of my life : a panic attack, followed by terrible anxiety, feeling of lost myself (depersonalization), insomnia, nightmares, disturbing thoughts, every little thing could freak me to death. I lived in hell for a year. I looked completely normal, but the way I felt was so terrible and weird that I can't describe.

the reason I started that thread was that after the panic attack I developed an EXTREME FEAR, that because of practicing presence and meditation (not like your average spirituality-fan, just before sleeping or on a bus, etc..) and reading Tolle I "crushed my personality/ego" (whatever that means), basically committed a spiritual suicide. This fear was so terrible that I just can't explain, even thinking about it could trigger a panic attack.

Reason I'm posting, is that there's one thing I'm sure now : Tolle's teachings, as I interpreted them, have a great flaw in them, and it is about the personality/ego. He, a lot of times, talks like ego, mind, thoughts are basically the same things, and like ego is the thing and the only thing that makes you seperated and that's the only thing that divides you from the "universal consciousness". Tolle totally misses the individual soul out of the story.

from my own experience, I can say, that is totally and fully false. I been through months where my thoughts were totally random, disoriented and meaningless, my feelings totally lost their way, basically, everything that Tolle talks about as "ego" just crushed in me ultimately. even though, coming out of it, I'm still the same person I was before, with the same world view, same characteristics, same personal qualities, desires, passions and talents.

We discussed with some of you and there were members who agreed with me.

as far as my experience, I think what happened to me is more like a release of the old negative repressed feelings (which I started to read books like this in the first place). I just didn't think that trying to "detoxify" yourself emotionally comes with a panic attack and anxiety.

I don't have any more significiant reason to post, I just wanted to share this shit.

arel
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by arel » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:37 pm

Out of curiousity, along with following ET teaching, did you at that time look into any other teaching?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

Lowrey
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by Lowrey » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:28 pm

arel wrote:Out of curiousity, along with following ET teaching, did you at that time look into any other teaching?
I read another book by Robert Greene I don't know if I'd call that a teaching. That's about fears and death.

arel
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by arel » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:52 pm

In my view ET's teaching is a complete teaching. It points to what you are, and that for me is the main thing. It also points to the ego which can make one lose the all consuming grip on the noise that is ego. Body awareness has similar effect. Looking at ego separates what you are from what you are not, kind of.

Then there is the tendency to look at some unique "teachings" like "there is no you". (In martial arts same kind of funny thing happens, people looking for secret methods, which is a hilarious tendency). And that of course is not helpful and I think causes weird things, like Midnight for example, describes the same things as you.

So I'd say to look for who you are, rather at all the ego stuff. That maybe the missing thing for you..
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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RCharles
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by RCharles » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:00 pm

Hi Lowrey,

Thanks for sharing so openly. Others will learn from your experience. It's also gratifying to see that you're coming through and out of the most difficult part of your journey.

It's not just Eckhart's teaching. Every spiritual tradition or practice that includes "self-examination" or meditation has the potential to lessen the control of the ego and take you deeply into the psyche to expose what's hidden there. I actually follow my own path which is a blend of mystical Christianity (primarily), Eckhart, Zen, Hinduism, and a slew of minor teachings. I was just writing yesterday on another thread about the spiritual "emergence-y" I went through, and others on the thread shared similar experiences. Your experience seems to have been more powerful than most, but it is not unique. Most deep seekers go through this.

If anything is missing from most spiritual teachings, possibly including Eckhart, it is the warning that spiritual struggles are likely to occur. The ego doesn't give up easily, and below the ego there is a lot of stuff in the unconscious mind that can and probably will come up--no matter what your spiritual practice. Then there are the exciting new realizations that spiritual practice brings, and even they can be both joyful and disconcerting. When you start any spiritual practice, you are letting the genie out of the bottle, which brings both challenges and highs. As the genie stories always say, getting your wish comes at a price, and the price of realization for most of us is that we have to go through many emotional/spiritual struggles to get there.

The good news is that at some point the scales tip, and joy, peace, and fulfillment outweigh the struggles. You just have to slog through some mud to get there.

Thanks again for sharing, Lowrey, and I hope your journey continues to get better and better.

Chuck
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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mistral
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by mistral » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:04 pm

Hi Lowrey,

I suggest you read this book titled "The Child Within Us Lives!" by William Samuel.

You will find confirmation of what your own Heart is telling you now about this feeling of having lost your Soul--- "The Child" is this Soul you speak of and this book is about That True Self.

Read these two excerpts from the Introduction of this book:

http://www.williamsamuel.com/01-03-08-cw-popcorn.htm

http://www.williamsamuel.com/01-03-08-continue.htm

I think you will find Much Joy and Freedom when you read this book--- I think it is an essential book for all those who are on this path of Self-discovery.

Much Love, Mistral

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TylerDurden
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by TylerDurden » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:35 pm

All those who actually make it to enlightenment had some degree or form of death/rebirth. If you don't go through it, you really can't wrap your head around it. You can understand it conceptually, sure. Knowledge by experience is where it's at, man. For some, Tolle's teachings are a blessing and enhance their special and beautiful spiritual lives. For others, it is a torch in a firework tent in July. Sounds like your tent caught fire and you put the fires out and you are ok at the moment. Eckhart's tent burned down completely years ago and he tells us what is left is beautiful (rebirth). Many take this to mean their tent is beautiful. That is fine. If they want to believe that and be happy, then why not let them? But don't lie to yourself inside your half burned down tent and tell us Tolle is a liar because your tent wasn't completely burned up. Stop putting out the flames, man. Let it burn completely and see what is left. See what survives.

Here's a guy that burned up and just wasn't able to extinguish the flames:
http://www.searchwithin.org/download/re ... _scoma.pdf
You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

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ashley72
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by ashley72 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:06 pm

TylerDurden, those are wise words in your post. You sum up the whole struggle aspect with alot of clarity. Thanks for sharing.

Only when you start to really let go of stuff causing all the suffering then seeking... can a rebirth occur. You go full circle, but you gain greater knowledge by going thru the car wash.

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far_eastofwest
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by far_eastofwest » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:14 am

I don't think you mentioned (though maybe i missed it) that your panic attack came with a hangover.
I cannot see any connection with life being 'all good' and taking in enough alcohol to result in hangover.

You have connected the breakdown with the reading of PON whereas it may well have been the more obvious... good old alcohol abuse. And no, you don't have to drink regularly to be an alcoholic, all you need to be an alcoholic is to have a strong reaction to alcohol.


Look into it if you wish and keep up your hopes, you have a whole life ahead of you so plenty of time to 'get it right'.

It could be too that your good 1.5 years you were acting the part of what you learnt but not really having it 'take' from the inside.
I remember when I started doing personal awareness stuff I learnt all about the 'others can't make you mad... its your reaction... etc'. I didn't 'get it right' the first time.
Well, my future mother in law came to visit (like the one from monster in law but made the movie version appear nice). I did my stuff, didn't get mad at the baiting, the comments, the abusive remarks etc.
All went well... but i was acting the part (these days I really can let it flow over me and or set boundaries in a calm and firm way) and ended up popping a gasket, packing the three kids into the car and leaving mil and her unweaned 40yo son alone after screming my head off at them..
If you're not doing the 'doing well' from within but just carrying out the actions then disaster will come, unfortunately not in little bits but in one big melt down.

Anyway, point is if you don't at first succeed, doesn't mean it wont work next time if you try it from a different angle.
:-)
There is nothing harder to find than a black cat in a dark room
Especially when there is no cat....

Lowrey
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by Lowrey » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:28 pm

TylerDurden wrote: But don't lie to yourself inside your half burned down tent and tell us Tolle is a liar because your tent wasn't completely burned up. Stop putting out the flames, man. Let it burn completely and see what is left. See what survives.
burn down the tent?

you don't understand me. I never wanted to "lose my ego" and all that shit. never even believed in it. My personal opinion about it that it is bullshit, and only idiots would want to "drop" their personality. I like who I am.

I also didn't say that Tolle is a liar.

I just say that there's definetely YOU between what Tolle calse "ego", and God or Source or whatever you like to call it.


but I see now that this forum is not what I've been looking for, so sorry for disturbing the peace here.

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TylerDurden
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by TylerDurden » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:33 pm

I just say that there's definetely YOU between what Tolle calse "ego", and God or Source or whatever you like to call it.
How do you know this to be true?
You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

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Webwanderer
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Lowry, I agree with you to an extent. There has been far too many who have 'killed' the ego, or at least felt that they had, and lived to regret it. It often leaves them out of contact with life. I'm not even convinced that the ego can be killed as easily as advertised, but that for some it just goes into hiding and becomes a kind of spiritualized ego giving one the perspective that they have conquered the enemy of life. I see it better to simply recognize ego for what it is with the greatest possible clarity. That clear recognition is deeply freeing from the blame and judgment and fear that ego identification fosters.

Ego at its base is an identification with concepts of thought built up over a lifetime of conditioning. It has, as you have fairly seen, its uses in our interaction with others and the events we encounter. The problem is the exclusive identification as ego as representing one's actual being. Therein lies the root of separation and suffering. The value of self inquiry is not the destruction of ego, but the recognition of it and assigning it its proper place. Persona exists within awareness. Tolle, and Mckenna, and Jesus and Siddhartha all had personality traits. When identified with as self however, it becomes a controlling ego. When recognized for the thought structure that it is, it becomes a vehicle of interaction.

The simple and clear recognition of it for what it is is sufficient to change one's experience of life in large measure. But it remains only half the truth. The other half is the understanding of the true self, the awareness that all experience happens within. Labels here are counter productive in that they can add to identification through more adopted concepts. Awareness is purely experiential, and even this is a word concept.

WW

alex
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by alex » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:57 pm

"If you prefer smoke over fire
then get up now and leave.
For I do not intend to perfume
your mind's clothing
with more sooty knowledge.

No, I have something else in mind.
Today I hold a flame in my left hand
and a sword in my right.
There will be no damage control today.

For God is in a mood
to plunder your riches and
fling you nakedly
into such breathtaking poverty
that all that will be left of you
will be a tendency to shine.

So don't just sit around this flame
choking on your mind.
For this is no campfire song
to mindlessly mantra yourself to sleep with.

Jump now into the space
between thoughts
and exit this dream
before I burn the damn place down."
— Adyashanti

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mistral
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by mistral » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:23 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Lowry, I agree with you to an extent. There has been far too many who have 'killed' the ego, or at least felt that they had, and lived to regret it. It often leaves them out of contact with life. I'm not even convinced that the ego can be killed as easily as advertised, but that for some it just goes into hiding and becomes a kind of spiritualized ego giving one the perspective that they have conquered the enemy of life. I see it better to simply recognize ego for what it is with the greatest possible clarity. That clear recognition is deeply freeing from the blame and judgment and fear that ego identification fosters.

Ego at its base is an identification with concepts of thought built up over a lifetime of conditioning. It has, as you have fairly seen, its uses in our interaction with others and the events we encounter. The problem is the exclusive identification as ego as representing one's actual being. Therein lies the root of separation and suffering. The value of self inquiry is not the destruction of ego, but the recognition of it and assigning it its proper place. Persona exists within awareness. Tolle, and Mckenna, and Jesus and Siddhartha all had personality traits. When identified with as self however, it becomes a controlling ego. When recognized for the thought structure that it is, it becomes a vehicle of interaction.

The simple and clear recognition of it for what it is is sufficient to change one's experience of life in large measure. But it remains only half the truth. The other half is the understanding of the true self, the awareness that all experience happens within. Labels here are counter productive in that they can add to identification through more adopted concepts. Awareness is purely experiential, and even this is a word concept.

WW
Wow, I love this WW!, You said It! I think this is such an important point that is often missing in the 'non-dual' teachings. There is a Self, and we are not supposed to kill the ego---really our ego is our life line to our Real Self. It is our ego that leads us to even go on this search for "who we are" and "what life is all about"---Bless the ego and understand that it, which is you, is the pathway to find your Greater Self, the Bigger Self, the Liberated from 'lowly belief's of your self" You are not your past or your body, you are MORE than that, but you also include all that, although Now you understand that the past and body are not 'real' in the sense that they have no power or value 'over you'. You are not held back or restricted by the limited view of your identity---Now you see you are free because you are Awareness Itself, this Awareness includes a sense of 'body and time' but You no longer have to live by those beliefs --- Your Real Identity Is Already Existing, you just begin to uncover It and Trust your own Heart's deep knowing. It's a little like the Quantum Field is our Real Self, but when you find that, you realize You still get to be A Sense of Identity as an Individual, a unique Identity, a Real Self with a wonderful story of Your Own Unfolding Journey. The Quantum Field is This Awareness that includes all time-space-images-events, but our Identity is NOT those events or stuck in time, we are the Awareness that beholds all these things. But, you do not lose your individuality, you actually become much more your Self right here in the world. You are easier with everything, you are lighter with things that happen, you don't fear Life anymore, but you feel richer in a very deep and mystical way. You are still here, you just feel so In LOVE with Life Now---and for me, the simple everyday stuff is all I need, because now just being alive is so extraordinary, so remarkable. Life is just a Sweet Mystery and I know now that Everything is part of God's Being. But, the point is, we become MORE our SELF, not less---That is what is so Beautiful about God, God does not intend to take you out, He made you special and when you begin to Trust God's Divine Intelligence, somehow your Truth Grows Greater---not less, not lost, not gone at all---But your Joy and your Peace LIved here in the world becomes More than you could have dreamed.

As an analogy; picture you draw a large Sphere, and then picture that you think you are that little point, that one tiny dot where you began to draw the huge circle--- Now picture that you start to expand your "dot self" along that line, and then you keep going all the way around and then you realize you are not even the line or the circle, but the whole circle you drew is an infinite boundry-less Sphere that includes ever point along the line and line upon the circle.

We are any point and all points along the line and we are the Infinite All that includes the points and lines. We find we can see and be both at the same time. I live as point but I know Who I Am in the greater sense, and I LIVE That in my Heart and in my Vision and In the way I live my point---

That sort of says what I want to say, mostly just want to say we don't get rid of anything--
on the contrary, we expand our view of Who We Are. :lol:

The Mystics try to tell us about Truth and Non-duaitly because It is A JOY to Live Again free from the false shell of limited self concepts---Now we can live in this world with this insight and understanding, and freedom, we get up and start doing things for our world in our very own special way.
Love to you, Mistral

Pako Chubi
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Re: The biggest missing part in Tolle's teachings

Post by Pako Chubi » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:09 am

Are you sure Tolle is missing that part, or is yourself that's missing it? Didn't YOU loose your individuality?
eckhart has nothing to do with this

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