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A trick of the mind?

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:11 pm
by mindgames
I tried to post this but it did not go through. I am trying again. Sorry if it came out twice..
In reading Eckhart Tolle's books and following also other spiritual teachers, the recurring theme seems to be the "I" and the "me". The thinker and the thought.
These teachers maintain that we are more than just our minds and our thoughts. That there is something that goes beyond mind and that is the ONE thing that makes us part of everything.
ET claims that there is the observer and the observed. But all of this is possible because we have a brain.
We can in fact watch a movie and know very well that what we are watching is not real and that such and such actor is feature in it.
In the same way we can have a thought and observe it with detachment thus creating the illusion that some other Source rather than merely the ability of our human brain, gives us that capability.
If I were in a coma I would be like a flower or a plant. I would be present, but then I would not be a human being. What makes us human is this brain which is capable of visualizing almost anything. Which is capable of making mental YouTube movies, or recalling images from the past and project them into the future. Which is also capable of creating a double image of me: the dance and the dancer. It is actually visually capable of creating these 2 images and make me think that there is ONE of them that is the real me, the "I".
How is it possible not to see that ultimately it is the brain that gives us this ability. It is just an ability.
And the proof of it is that all the spiritual teachers need to use words and mind to convey what another mind ultimately is going to either get or not get.
I am not criticizing, I am just noticing things. I have been reading lots and watching lots of YouTube videos of ET, Adyashanti and others.
WHat strikes me is how much mind is into what they are saying. It is all a mindgame really. Some of them even use phrases such as "can you grasp this?" or "if you get this, then you will be free of suffering" something of the sort.
Again, it involves the level of mind. Nothing is beyond it. Not in this world as we know it.
Not to mention that most of the teachers are fully benefiting from the world of form and all the ego creations that ultimately will cause suffering. Maybe not to them, but how do we know?
Again, I am just observing, not judging nor criticizing. I find all this very interesting and at some level it has helped me deal with my life situation. But i can't help noticing these things.
bye for now

Re: A trick of the mind?

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:37 pm
by Ziendus
> That there is something that goes beyond mind and that is the ONE thing that makes us part of everything.

Of course, in direct experience, everything is one.
When I communicate something to you, like touching the surface of your computerscreen,
I have to use words, and words belong to the capacity to divide that-which-is-one into separate entities.
But in the direct experience of touching-your-computerscreen is no division at all.
And it is not the capacity to divide that is this touching-experience.
And putting this experience into words is not the same as the experience itself.
Actually, every conscious-experience is a non-dividable Fruttummuttut.
(Fruttummuttut: used in lack of a better word.)
And even in the experience of words and thoughts, no division can be found.
The experience of oneness is already yours.
It is not very spectacular, and yet a miracle.
Si ?

Re: A trick of the mind?

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:49 pm
by Ananda
Hello mindgames,


Welcome to the forum.


In reading Eckhart Tolle's books and following also other spiritual teachers, the recurring theme seems to be the "I" and the "me". The thinker and the thought.
Did you mean to equate 'I' with the thinker? The thinker is himself a thought, it is not 'I'.

ET claims that there is the observer and the observed. But all of this is possible because we have a brain.
We can in fact watch a movie and know very well that what we are watching is not real and that such and such actor is feature in it.
In the same way we can have a thought and observe it with detachment thus creating the illusion that some other Source rather than merely the ability of our human brain, gives us that capability.
Your subjective experience is possible because of the brain, but what does that have to do with the observer?

If I were in a coma I would be like a flower or a plant.

What is the content of the notion 'I' in this statement? Is it the body? To what do you refer to when you say 'If I were in a coma'?

I would be present, but then I would not be a human being
What is present as 'I' when you are in a coma? Are you referring to the body?

What makes us human is this brain which is capable of visualizing almost anything.

Are you a human? With what do you associate 'I'? The body?

Which is capable of making mental YouTube movies, or recalling images from the past and project them into the future. Which is also capable of creating a double image of me: the dance and the dancer. It is actually visually capable of creating these 2 images and make me think that there is ONE of them that is the real me, the "I".
In the case of the brain throwing up mental images, recalling memories and imagining the future, and in the case of the brain creating images of the notions of both observer and observed, which is you in this collection of objects? Out of all of this brain activity, which is the 'I'? Furthermore, to what are all of these images evident; by what are they known?

How is it possible not to see that ultimately it is the brain that gives us this ability. It is just an ability.
If 'I' am simply an ability, that is, a quality of being able to 'do' something, then to whom is it that the brain gives this ability? Is it possible that I am both the ability to separate experience into observer and observed, and also the one which owns such an ability? Do you think that 'observing' is an action?

the proof of it is that all the spiritual teachers need to use words and mind to convey what another mind ultimately is going to either get or not get.
Is 'I' the mind? Is it one mind conveying knowledge to another mind, and is it the mind which becomes freed from limitations?


Again, it involves the level of mind. Nothing is beyond it. Not in this world as we know it.
If nothing is beyond the mind, if there is no observer beyond it, then tell me, how do you know the mind? How can you speak about the mind and its boundaries as an object of your knowledge if in fact you are nothing over and above the mind to which it appears and is known? Do you think the mind is creating an impression of there being an observer of it, and if so, how?

Re: A trick of the mind?

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:25 pm
by HermitLoon
Negation of all that the mind thinks of as reality is the path toward the realization of the essence of being (which is beyond the mind and so cannot be described or even thought of).

A pointer from Nisargadatta:
Your true home is in nothingness, in emptiness of all content. (487)

I can describe your supreme, natural state only by negation, as uncaused, independent, unrelated, undivided, uncomposed, unshakable, unquestionable, unreachable by effort. Every positive definition is from memory and, therefore, inapplicable. (16)

How can I put it into words, except in negating them? Therefore, I use words like timeless, spaceless, causeless. These are words too, but as they are empty of meaning, they suit my purpose because you want words where no words apply. (458)

Re: A trick of the mind?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:23 pm
by Pako Chubi
mindgames wrote:I tried to post this but it did not go through. I am trying again. Sorry if it came out twice..
In reading Eckhart Tolle's books and following also other spiritual teachers, the recurring theme seems to be the "I" and the "me". The thinker and the thought.
These teachers maintain that we are more than just our minds and our thoughts. That there is something that goes beyond mind and that is the ONE thing that makes us part of everything.
ET claims that there is the observer and the observed. But all of this is possible because we have a brain.
We can in fact watch a movie and know very well that what we are watching is not real and that such and such actor is feature in it.
In the same way we can have a thought and observe it with detachment thus creating the illusion that some other Source rather than merely the ability of our human brain, gives us that capability.
If I were in a coma I would be like a flower or a plant. I would be present, but then I would not be a human being. What makes us human is this brain which is capable of visualizing almost anything. Which is capable of making mental YouTube movies, or recalling images from the past and project them into the future. Which is also capable of creating a double image of me: the dance and the dancer. It is actually visually capable of creating these 2 images and make me think that there is ONE of them that is the real me, the "I".
How is it possible not to see that ultimately it is the brain that gives us this ability. It is just an ability.
And the proof of it is that all the spiritual teachers need to use words and mind to convey what another mind ultimately is going to either get or not get.
I am not criticizing, I am just noticing things. I have been reading lots and watching lots of YouTube videos of ET, Adyashanti and others.
WHat strikes me is how much mind is into what they are saying. It is all a mindgame really. Some of them even use phrases such as "can you grasp this?" or "if you get this, then you will be free of suffering" something of the sort.
Again, it involves the level of mind. Nothing is beyond it. Not in this world as we know it.
Not to mention that most of the teachers are fully benefiting from the world of form and all the ego creations that ultimately will cause suffering. Maybe not to them, but how do we know?
Again, I am just observing, not judging nor criticizing. I find all this very interesting and at some level it has helped me deal with my life situation. But i can't help noticing these things.
bye for now

And what if it is the brain? the thing is being free of negativity (wich doesn't means not having it), stop suffering and being in peace and joy with life... if the observer is the brain, the mind, the spirit, consciousness, the I or whatever doesn't matters... but when that matters, then there's really too much mind in the way :P