Eckhart on Suicide

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Rubber Soul
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Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Rubber Soul » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:12 pm

What is his opinion on it? Has he ever discussed it?

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Kutso
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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Kutso » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:32 pm

He who searches, shall find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ja75T5wF1U
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:51 pm

The deeper one goes into the truth on the nature of one's own being the clearer it becomes why, generally speaking, suicide is a bad idea. If there is a continuity to life between what is experienced in this physical world and a spiritual world of conscious existence that far transcends the physical, then it's certain that decisions about coming to this human experience were made not in the physical world, but beyond it. That being said, then any decision one might make about suicide and leaving this experience, would be contradicting a decision made from a much clearer understanding of the experiential value about why one chose to come here to start with.

Again, generally speaking, whatever suffering one is currently experiencing can be changed and transcended by proper thinking and focusing creative energy towards a healthier perspective on one's life. We are our worst enemy and our best friend. The perspective we hold is paramount in determining the experience we have. We simply need to understand how conditions manifest and participate consciously in their unfolding.

For those who have committed suicide, they will likely find that life continues and all they did was rob themselves of opportunities for growth that will eventually have to be repeated.

This is my take on it. I find it quite empowering.

WW

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by unbornawakened » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:48 am

WW,

Do we have to take it on faith that our individual sense of self continues after death of the body ? Some do not believe in a continuing after death. And science does not accept any of the evidence (if any) presented.

If something continues, but the individual self dies - then the ego is gone, and well, that could simply be a relief - not a tragedy.

If nothing individual continues, there is no one to have any regrets.

Perhaps life is meant to be enjoyed, and has no other purpose such as growth etc. Certainly everyone wants to be happy, and that is common to all human beings, and no assumption required. If we accept that, then all attempts should be made to bring back joy to the life of the one who contemplates suicide, without relying on assumptions regarding an afterlife or a specific purpose.

But for all of us a time may come when suffering can become chronic and inevitable - physical suffering that is. A terminal illness. Debilitating impairments due to old age. What is the rationale for putting up with that, if there is no will to live anymore, and if there is no assumption about a goal or an afterlife.

While your advice is well taken, it relies on an assumption which is not shared by all.

Actually Echart's advice does not require a belief in afterlife. He says try surrendering yourself and become freer from the ego's grip - and see what happens, before contemplating suicide.

Just some quick thoughts ...

P.S. I personally share your viewpoint (most of the time) ;) but I wonder if I could be wrong.

surfingisfun
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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by surfingisfun » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:35 am

Eckhart says "The key to life is to die before you die and realize that there is no death."

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by surfingisfun » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:37 am

In my opinion suicide isn't a choice. It's what happens when the severity of suffering a person experiences outweighs hope and foreseeable change.

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Rubber Soul » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:21 am

I obviously asked this question for myself. Drugs seem to be the only answer to emotional suffering. And that's how plenty of people choose to deal with it. Unfortunately, I can't find any. As for Eckhart, I still haven't learned to surrender and I've been listening to him for about a year. I'm too worried about whether I'm below or above thought. It's so easy to go below and I find that even more depressing.

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by surfingisfun » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:42 am

Forget what Eckhart says and look within yourself. You're the only one that has the right answers. Why are you suffering so badly?

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Rubber Soul » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:57 am

I hate to be so typical, but because a certain woman exists.

And I just feel like I can't live the life I'm supposed to live. I really feel helpless. I'm really missing out on life, and I'm in my early 20s. This is an important age to enjoy.

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by surfingisfun » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:59 am

Cuz a certain woman exists that's making your life miserable or cuz you can't be with a certain someone?

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by alex » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:26 am

It's good that you're talking about it. Writing it down and getting it from your head into the physical world. I really really super strongly suggest you talk to someone.
Please don't contemplate it seriously. I have been suicidal twice, once when I was a teenager and once in my early twenties. You are still so young as I was. It is such a tragedy to rashly end your life when who knows what is around the corner. I still have tough times sure but I've found so much beauty and goodness. When I imagine if I had truly gone through with it back then I am just so infinetly greatful I never did.
It is the WRONG choice. You can get through it. You will eventually come to surrender. You can't choose when it will happen, when you will learn those lessons but they will come at exactly the right time. Don't rob yourself of them.
Xxxxx

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Rubber Soul » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:11 am

surfingisfun wrote:Cuz a certain woman exists that's making your life miserable or cuz you can't be with a certain someone?
Well both, actually.

Suicide seems really appealing for plenty of reasons. I don't believe this life has a purpose, and if it's up to me to make one then forget it. I've wasted all these years without any social connection or money or real living. I'm being stalked too.

Lessons? What could I possibly learn when every day is exactly the same?

If I don't wake up, then I can't progress in any way.

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:24 am

unbornawakened wrote:WW,

Do we have to take it on faith that our individual sense of self continues after death of the body ? Some do not believe in a continuing after death. And science does not accept any of the evidence (if any) presented.
Belief is only useful to the degree that it is based on evidence. There is tons of evidence for the continuation of life after the death of the body. The evidence that science pursues and studies is physical evidence. Science, for the most part, rejects evidence that is not physical in nature. But the evidence for continued existence is not physical, so science is not capable of giving a fair investigation. It's simply saying that there is no physical evidence of a non-physical reality. Is this at all surprising?

There are however a good number of honest investigators into the subject of life after death through the study of NDE's, OBE's and lucid dreams to name a few areas of useful information. If one has not studied these for themselves in depth then they cannot know the extent of the evidence, nor the clarity available to ones understanding. The only thing that really matters is the truth. Those that have actually had NDE's for example, find it laughable the efforts of so many main stream (often atheistic) scientists employ to explain away a phenomena that contradicts their personal philosophy.
If nothing individual continues, there is no one to have any regrets
If...? Can you say for certain nothing individualized continues. Or is this a belief? Isn't it better to do an honest exploration and let the truth be what it is. I'm not asking anyone to believe anything. Simply do you own investigation. Wouldn't you agree the subject is a fundamental issue and warrants full exposure?
Perhaps life is meant to be enjoyed, and has no other purpose such as growth etc
Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Which is it, really? What do we really know? It certainly makes a difference in our world view and how we approach the conditions in our lives.
Certainly everyone wants to be happy, and that is common to all human beings, and no assumption required. If we accept that, then all attempts should be made to bring back joy to the life of the one who contemplates suicide, without relying on assumptions regarding an afterlife or a specific purpose.
Many who suffer depression (and I have been there) suffer because there seems to be no rhyme nor reason for their pain, nor the conditions they endure - and they often feel powerless to change it. But who would not walk through hell for a purpose they deeply believed in, such the safety of a loved one, or a great cause they were dedicated to? The thing is, a genuine purpose makes pain tolerable.

I suggest that there is nothing wrong with relying on assumptions so long as they are based in sufficient evidence to be recognized as truth. We all make assumptions all the time. Example: I assume that South America exists although I have no personal experience that it does. I even once flew to Hawaii because I assumed that it did indeed exist, but I didn't know from experience until I arrived. (I hope it wasn't a big plot to deceive me :wink: ).
But for all of us a time may come when suffering can become chronic and inevitable - physical suffering that is. A terminal illness. Debilitating impairments due to old age.
In my earlier post, I did say 'generally speaking'. I acknowledge there could be exceptions.

My point is that anyone contemplating the extraordinary act of suicide might best be served by doing due diligence on what it is they are contemplating. It may be that a much more satisfying and valuable life is awaiting them just beyond a little greater understanding - an understanding that is readily available with just an honest effort at their own research. I point to a personal understanding here that I have spent decades exploring. It has served me well.

Go here:

http://www.nderf.org/Exceptional%20Accounts.htm

Or Here:

http://www.near-death.com/sitemap.html#two
Actually Echart's advice does not require a belief in afterlife.
For the record, Eckhart does accept the existence of an afterlife as well as reincarnation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWXpPGL55No



Rubber Soul, I wrote this dialog for you as much as for unbornawakened. Suffering and pain is a way that life tells us we are off course. That's not a judgment of right or wrong. It's just the rubbing up against the guardrails on the highway of human experience. A happier more fulfilling experience in life is available through a clear understanding of the greater nature of our being. It's likely we will never understand it all while we are in this body, but just the movement towards that understanding and clarity is sufficient to bring peace and even joy to one's life. I encourage you to make the effort to explore the truth of your nature.

There is no judgment in life except that that we lay upon ourselves. And with a little insight and wisdom we quickly learn to let that go too. There is great opportunity in front of you. Choose to make use of it. Give yourself the love you deserve. You are worth it.

WW

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by Rubber Soul » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:02 am

I've read most if not all of the accounts on nderf.org. Many of the experiencers (e.g. Stanley P) report omniscience and that's one of the main reasons I want death.

I don't believe it's possible to gain a clearer understanding of the greater nature of our being while alive on Earth, as I've been trying for 2 years now with no success. I believe psychedelic drugs have enormous spiritual potential, despite their bad reputation. But unfortunately I do not have access to them.

I might give myself a year, just in case something actually does happen in 2012 (which I highly doubt).

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Re: Eckhart on Suicide

Post by unbornawakened » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:47 am

I totally sympathize with you- not that I think you should act on your wish - but I understand. I used to read up a lot about NDEs and I had similar thoughts ... why put up with so much, when you can be free of the physical. But when you start to think more you realize that something does not make sense here. Something is fishy, and we can't seem to find it out. Eventually, I have come to give up on these beliefs, because they are just that. Perhaps if I had an NDE, the certainty would be there, and perhaps an understanding as to why this show must go on. But in the absence of a real experience, hearsay does not cut it for me.

At times, I have had similar thoughts about wanting it all to end. However, it always remained a wish - I could never bring myself even to begin to act on it. It takes tremendous courage or tremendous pain to end it all. It is easy to talk about but it is really not an option. We are too attached to life - even when it seems miserable - to want to end it.

At the same time, do not give up hope. There are ways that will allow you to experience much more joy and peace. Meditation is a good place to start. Being surrounded by good people, friends, family helps a lot. Doing work that you enjoy doing. Seeing the world. Spending time in nature. Take advantage of the opportunities, and create more opportunities. Wallowing in sadness won't get you anywhere, trust me on that. Except perhaps if it takes you to utter self-surrender.

As for psychedelics, they are not addictive ... but often people end up having bad trips and they stop. It may open your eyes to other possibilities - you may actually experience something you have never experienced. But I doubt that it can make you happier or bring lasting peace and joy. And it is not true that all are banned - some can be obtained legally ... at least in certain countries - google Salvia Divinorum.

Finally, the total surrender that ET talks about may not be something you can actually will or try ( a milder version of it you can get under the right circumstances and if you really want to let go). It just happens when you lose all hope and as he said, you can't live with yourself anymore. I had an experience similar to that a long time ago - in fact, the reason I was attracted to ET (picked up his book, read the preface, and decided this person is genuine and describes something I have experienced firsthand). What followed was about 2 weeks of incredible bliss ... waves and waves of joy up and down my body. Unfortunately, I was sucked back into my previous state ... however, the memory remained .... and this gave me courage ... that it is possible to experience incredible joy without anything external being needed (except a book that I had read which triggered the experience - actually the day after I had that utter despair which made me want everything to end I went to a library and somehow was guided to a book which I borrowed, took home, and started reading).

Another advice - do not try any addictive drugs (psychedelics might be OK), you will regret it. If you have stayed away from it, keep away from it. Trust me on this one. It will only make things worse in the long term.

Rubber Soul wrote:I've read most if not all of the accounts on nderf.org. Many of the experiencers (e.g. Stanley P) report omniscience and that's one of the main reasons I want death.

I don't believe it's possible to gain a clearer understanding of the greater nature of our being while alive on Earth, as I've been trying for 2 years now with no success. I believe psychedelic drugs have enormous spiritual potential, despite their bad reputation. But unfortunately I do not have access to them.

I might give myself a year, just in case something actually does happen in 2012 (which I highly doubt).

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