Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

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tod
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by tod » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:08 pm

Igor15 wrote:There is not the possessor of 'the mind'. 'The mind' as whole has no owner.
'The mind' as whole can't perceive itself. It can't also perceive anything else outside itself because everything is 'the mind'.
In order to perceive something 'the mind' has to be divided. Divided mind is thought. Division of 'the mind' isn't real. So thought isn't real.
The self is thought and it isn't real also. Awareness has the same nature as thought. So it's illusionary.
In other words self, thought and awareness is the same thing(the divided mind).
Seeing that the division isn't real is enlightenment. Coming back to 'the mind' as whole is death.
Death and enlightenment is thought. They are illusional.
Wondering... so how do you know this?

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Elle
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Elle » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:36 pm

Igor15 wrote: In other words self, thought and awareness is the same thing(the divided mind).
Can you elaborate?

EternalPrize
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by EternalPrize » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:42 pm

Sorry to hear what you are dealing with. I have often wondered the same thing about the psychological ramifications regarding these "spiritual" experiences. Considering we get caught up in the idea that any spiritual progress is "good" because it is an improvement on life or a tapping into something higher, I think we too often lose sight of the fact that these "spiritual" ideas are only viewpoints. The changes that occur along the spiritual path will always be psychological in nature. One cannot deny that life is a neurological experience dependent upon the functioning of the brain. Because of this, people in certain mind-states or coming from certain places, I feel, can be taken to different places upon realization than other people. It's just the nature of their brain and their conditioning and the way it mixes with awakening.

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:57 pm

tod wrote:
Wondering... so how do you know this?
Just thought up.

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:06 pm

Elle wrote:
Igor15 wrote: In other words self, thought and awareness is the same thing(the divided mind).
Can you elaborate?
Everything we know is thought.
How do you know that you are aware or not?
By thought.
So awareness is thought.

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SandyJoy
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:37 pm

So, for me, since God is Infinite and All and I have walked with this understanding, I have come to see that I no longer have to abide by "non-dual' words or ways of saying what I say. Why would I stick to only "non-dualisms' when I see the Whole Wide Vast Endless Unknown Wonder of Life right here in the simple joy of being here in this world.

The Truth isn't bound to meet human expectations. The Truth is not confined to logic and reasoning; it includes that, but it does have to adhere to those perimeters. God is still a mystery to me, but the Self-I-Am, made in the perfect Image of God, grows clearer every day.

I found that we become like the fountains we drink from. Drink from the Whole Full Fresh Waters of Life. Don't try to encapsulate Life, God, Infinite All to fit your logical idea of what God Is. Its just self limitation to think God can confined to only this or only that. God is being whatever God wants to be. Its beyond what we can conjure up as rational.

Go straight to the Source, begin with Godhead which is The Divine Mind being All that you are, and all that is. This Source, God is a single Fountainhead, God, all, single, alone and only for whom Jesus speaks. It is Here and Now, we are one with This by the very fact that we are aware. Aware reading these words.... We are aware, without doubt. God is being this Awareness because there is nothing else or other. Begin Here with the Truth, and then see what unfolds for you.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Ananda
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Ananda » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:37 pm

Hello Igor,


How do you know that you are aware or not?
By thought.
You are aware of thought, also.

So awareness is thought.
So awareness is different from thought.




:)

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:34 am

Ananda wrote: You are aware of thought, also.
So awareness is different from thought.
:)
To be aware of thought means to experience thought. Not the content of thought but the thought itself.
If it is possible for you to experience thought as it is then tell me what thought is.
Actually there is no way to know what thought is because thought is the only instrument we have.
There can be thought that there is something different from thought but it is still thought.
Somebody can simply full himself by thinking that awareness is something else different from thought.
It is just a game with no meaning.
On the other hand it is not very hard to see how this self-deception works.
Awareness and thought are different names for the same thing.
So trying to be aware you are getting nowhere. You just exercise in thinking.

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:27 pm

SandyJoy wrote:So, for me, since God is Infinite and All and I have walked with this understanding, I have come to see that I no longer have to abide by "non-dual' words or ways of saying what I say. Why would I stick to only "non-dualisms' when I see the Whole Wide Vast Endless Unknown Wonder of Life right here in the simple joy of being here in this world.

The Truth isn't bound to meet human expectations. The Truth is not confined to logic and reasoning; it includes that, but it does have to adhere to those perimeters. God is still a mystery to me, but the Self-I-Am, made in the perfect Image of God, grows clearer every day.

I found that we become like the fountains we drink from. Drink from the Whole Full Fresh Waters of Life. Don't try to encapsulate Life, God, Infinite All to fit your logical idea of what God Is. Its just self limitation to think God can confined to only this or only that. God is being whatever God wants to be. Its beyond what we can conjure up as rational.

Go straight to the Source, begin with Godhead which is The Divine Mind being All that you are, and all that is. This Source, God is a single Fountainhead, God, all, single, alone and only for whom Jesus speaks. It is Here and Now, we are one with This by the very fact that we are aware. Aware reading these words.... We are aware, without doubt. God is being this Awareness because there is nothing else or other. Begin Here with the Truth, and then see what unfolds for you.
God, the truth, the Source and Awareness are only words that means thought.
They are only abstractions. Thought fabricated them.
Trying to find something outside of thought has no meaning except keeping you busy.
Involvement in all this prevents you from seeing how this works.
Thought is capable of creating anything you like but it is only fiction.
To be awake means to understand this. After that thought takes its place where it is relevant.
Trying to gain something from fictitious thought is not wise and it is called suffering.

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Ananda
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Ananda » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:14 pm

Hello Igor,

To be aware of thought means to experience thought. Not the content of thought but the thought itself.
If it is possible for you to experience thought as it is then tell me what thought is.
Actually there is no way to know what thought is because thought is the only instrument we have.
There can be thought that there is something different from thought but it is still thought.
Somebody can simply full himself by thinking that awareness is something else different from thought.
It is just a game with no meaning.
On the other hand it is not very hard to see how this self-deception works.
Awareness and thought are different names for the same thing.
So trying to be aware you are getting nowhere. You just exercise in thinking.

Frankly, this comes across as sophistry.

Thought as an instrument of knowledge is known to everybody; it is experienced. The point I was making is that the experiencer of thought is distinct from thought. You are aware of your thoughts, that is a self-evident fact. There is no need to dress it up in fancy language, or delve into specious reasoning. Even if we admit that 'I am aware of thoughts' is itself a thought, this thought, too, is known to you, undeniably. Being aware of thoughts is not the same as thinking about being aware of thoughts. The latter is an idea, the former is your natural state; it cannot be contrived or brought about anew. Awareness is subject, thought is object, and it is always so. It is simple and obvious when you get out of the mental gymnastics.




:)

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:44 pm

Ananda wrote:
Frankly, this comes across as sophistry.

Being aware of thoughts is not the same as thinking about being aware of thoughts. The latter is an idea, the former is your natural state; it cannot be contrived or brought about anew. Awareness is subject, thought is object, and it is always so. It is simple and obvious when you get out of the mental gymnastics.
:)
Here we have just different frameworks of thought. That is why it looks like sophistry.

Being aware of thoughts is the same as thinking about being aware of thoughts. There is no difference.
The difference is fictitious and is introduced by you with the help of thinking.
Nobody can prove this to you.
There must be change in the framework of thought in order to see this. How it happens nobody knows.
After that there is freedom from foolish assumptions. One becomes free from all that foolishness that one imposed on oneself.

arel
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by arel » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:18 pm

Igor, I can barely understand what you are talking about. Why do you think that is? I will say it is because what you are saying is not a universal, even if you speak it like it is vs speaking from a personal perspective, it doesn't make it so.

Now if I say that you and I are aware right now, I don't think you or anyone else, can deny that. It is a "universal truth", I would say. Is saying that, a thought put into language? Of course. It's obvious. Is that what you are talking about? Anything that is put into language is imagination/thought. There is no more to that point then that. No need to introduce complicated language because thinking is a process we all know about. Let's talk in every day language.

The experience right now however, includes thought, and sometimes not.

This forum talks a lot about what is aware of thought. Pointing that out, the awareness, presents certain realizations, and those are topics on here.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:37 pm

arel wrote:Igor, I can barely understand what you are talking about. Why do you think that is? I will say it is because what you are saying is not a universal, even if you speak it like it is vs speaking from a personal perspective, it doesn't make it so.

Now if I say that you and I are aware right now, I don't think you or anyone else, can deny that. It is a "universal truth", I would say. Is saying that, a thought put into language? Of course. It's obvious. Is that what you are talking about? Anything that is put into language is imagination/thought. There is no more to that point then that. No need to introduce complicated language because thinking is a process we all know about. Let's talk in every day language.

The experience right now however, includes thought, and sometimes not.

This forum talks a lot about what is aware of thought. Pointing that out, the awareness, presents certain realizations, and those are topics on here.
No.

The difficulty in understanding that awareness is no different than thought exists because you take for granted that it isn't thought.
How do you know that awareness isn't thought? Someone told you this once. You believed it and now it is a "universal truth" for you.
You don't give yourself a chance to investigate this because you think there is no need for investigation.

I am not joking.

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Ananda
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Ananda » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:04 pm

Hello Igor,


How do you know that awareness isn't thought?
It is self-evident that awareness isn't thought. You are aware of your thoughts, therefore, you are not your thoughts. You can not deny it. Nobody can deny it. Thoughts are transient objects, they are present or absent; that by which the presence or absence of thoughts is known, or recognised, is awareness, or the Subject; you. Thoughts do not know themselves, they are perceived by another, a Subject- that is awareness. Any conclusion to the contrary will land you into an infinite regression, a fallacy which rails against your own experience, and mine, and everybody elses.


Someone told you this once. You believed it and now it is a "universal truth" for you.

This is an absurdity. You do not need anybody telling you it to know that you are aware of your thoughts- it is self-evident, self proven, by the very fact that you are talking about thoughts as an object of your immediate knowledge and experience! You love talking about thoughts, thinking about thoughts, you are aware of all of it, being different from it. No amount of logical gymnastics can escape that, no matter how many times you inanely insist there is no difference and that it's all thought.


You don't give yourself a chance to investigate this because you think there is no need for investigation.

This is an extremely presumptuous statement.




:)

Igor15
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Re: Noone else just numb due to these teachings?

Post by Igor15 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:28 pm

Ananda wrote: It is self-evident that awareness isn't thought. You are aware of your thoughts, therefore, you are not your thoughts. You can not deny it. Nobody can deny it. Thoughts are transient objects, they are present or absent; that by which the presence or absence of thoughts is known, or recognised, is awareness, or the Subject; you. Thoughts do not know themselves, they are perceived by another, a Subject- that is awareness. Any conclusion to the contrary will land you into an infinite regression, a fallacy which rails against your own experience, and mine, and everybody elses.
I am sorry, Ananda but for me it is not self-evident. My experience is such that how hard I try I can't see any difference between presence and absence of thought. For me it is the same 'state of mind'. In other words what you call 'absence of thought' is no different with the state when there are thoughts. Nothing changes. It is like adding more water to the wet thing.
For me awareness is a process of thought movement. Adding or subtracting a thought from it doesn't make much difference.
The nature of awareness and thought is the same. It is the same movement.
It is like an opened or a closed door. It is the same door.
I see it like this awareness thing just going through many kinds of its state like a number can change. Many thoughts are kinds of the state and absence of thoughts is just one of the states. Thought doesn't exist apart from this awareness thing so does awareness. That is why I see no difference between them.

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