The best explanation of free will ever

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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:48 pm

Rick wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:...is it not possible that there is an available choice to consciousness being? Does this not seem a reasonable process of conscious evolution?

WW


Depends upon how you see it.

Does the truth of it really depend on how one sees it? Or is it more a matter of how one experiences it?


A follower of Abraham might see it this way:

"If you are ending up where you want to be, what difference does it make whether you went fast or slow? Or what difference does it make whether it was painful before it got really good? Isn't that the point of free will? You get to choose." -Abraham

A non-dualist might see it this way:

"For a nondualist, who sustains that everything appears in Consciousness, and that there is only that One Consciousness, there is no such thing as free will, because all individual body-minds are not real entities, but mere appearances without substance.

There is actually more to the Abraham perspective than what you quote, and it's much like your quote for the non-dualist. Abraham continuously teaches that everything appears in consciousness - that we are indeed Source Consciousness extended in this physical leading edge experience. The distinction of course is the matter of free will.

If one takes the perspective of being a separate being from the Source that is one's origin, then free will is an illusion, as being separate is not possible in a universe of One Consciousness. And make no mistake, even in the perspective of claimed oneness, believing one does not exist is a perspective of separation. 'I don't exist' is a strongly implied statement that 'I am not a part' of eternal being.

However, from the perspective of being a unique perspective within the One Consciousness, somewhat isolated by lack of available memory of one's True Nature, then free will exists as an element of the Source Being of which one remains a part regardless of one's immediate lack of clarity.

It seems more accurate to perceive that what appears as separate is not real, but the consciousness that perceives it, as real or not, is real, because it is Source Itself seeing life from infinitely unique perspectives.


Where there is no real doer, there cannot be a free will.

So in this context the question of free will is irrelevant. The significant issue is is there a Real Doer? And could (did?) this Doer pass the capacity for doing into unique perspectives within its own being, even if limited within certain environments?

WW
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:54 pm

rideforever wrote:Ah yes I think I saw this sign over the entrance to Vegas : "Great Future Ahead, don't worry if you lose a bit of money on the way !!!".

Ah yes, but did you also notice the sign on the way out of the door that said: "Don't worry about what's behind you that you can do nothing about except learn from the experience, there is an infinite universe that starts right now. Make the most of it".

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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:33 pm

rideforever wrote:I think you are just incredibly lazy KM.


That's true. And I'm quite proud of it.

Nisargadatta for instance who you quote a lot spent 2 years in very close proximity to a guru and was raised in a culture that was imbued with grace, and he conducted a very strict "sadhana" of deeply reflecting on his own existence and holding fast to the belief that he was the supreme as his guru had instructed him.


Nisargadatta's guru died right after he gave N the simple instruction to look at the sense of you (hold on to the sense of I AM).

And so Nisargadatta did the one thing which works. He looked at the sense of I AM. And there actually isn't very much effort to this once we get going.

It's quite astonishing that you can equate the cessation of tail-chasing to doing-nothing.

Stop being so childish. Observe your proclivity to throw a tantrum at everything. Observe your fears--stop trapping yourself in the singular ever-going lament that everyone else is a moron and the world is lost. Stop misconstruing your negativity for "passion." The world is not making you unhappy--only you are.

Take a look. That's the only requiriement. You actually do have to look.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby rideforever » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:06 pm

karmarider wrote:Nisargadatta's guru died right after he gave N the simple instruction to look at the sense of you (hold on to the sense of I AM). It took him a little less than three years.

We can note that that's all that Nisargadatta did. He held on to the sense of I AM.

No. More untrue statements coming from you KM, is there no end to the rubbish you say.

Nisargadatta was with his guru for 2.5 years and did not die "right after" he gave instruction - that is not true.

In fact Nisargadatta had 'attained' before his guru died.

Nisargadatta performed an INTENSIVE SADHANA for 2.5 years !!! using all his spare time to attend to meditation or bhakti.

This is the OPPOSITE of what your advice is - which is do nothing - which is just what you do ... not what Nisargadatta did.

There are people here who come looking for advice, and you lie to them and misrepresent Nisargadatta's teachings.

That is how it seems to me.
Last edited by rideforever on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:07 pm

rideforever wrote:That is how it seems to me.


That's not surprising.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:14 pm

When Maruti [Nisargadatta] was 34, a friend of his, Yashwantrao Baagkar, introduced him to his guru, Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj, the head of the Inchegeri branch of the Navanath Sampradaya. The guru gave a mantra and some instructions to Maruti and died soon after. Sri Nisargadatta later recalled:

My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense 'I am' and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing, or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened, I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense 'I am'. It may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked!1

1. I Am That, Chapter 75, p. 375.



Once again, ridesforever:

Stop being so childish. Observe your proclivity to throw a tantrum at everything. Observe your fears--stop trapping yourself in the singular ever-going lament that everyone else is a moron and the world is lost. Stop misconstruing your negativity for "passion." The world is not making you unhappy--only you are.

Take a look. That's the only requiriement. You actually do have to look.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby rideforever » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:25 pm

I see you are finally reading about his life - but you are now only posting selective quotations that support your views !!!!!! - nice, the lying goes on !!
In 1933, he was introduced to his guru, Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj, the head of the Inchegiri branch of the Navnath Sampradaya, by his friend Yashwantrao Baagkar. His guru told him, "You are not what you take yourself to be...". He then gave Nisargadatta simple instructions which he followed verbatim, as he himself recounted later:
"My Guru ordered me to attend to the sense 'I am' and to give attention to nothing else. I just obeyed. I did not follow any particular course of breathing, or meditation, or study of scriptures. Whatever happened, I would turn away my attention from it and remain with the sense 'I am'. It may look too simple, even crude. My only reason for doing it was that my Guru told me so. Yet it worked!"

Following his guru's instructions to concentrate on the feeling "I Am", he utilized all his spare time looking at himself in silence, and remained in that state for the coming years, practising meditation and singing devotional bhajans.

After an association that lasted hardly two and a half years, Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj died on November 9, 1936, though by that time he had done his task. Maruti had reached self-awareness. Soon he adopted a new name, "Nisargadatta" meaning "naturally given" ("nis-arga" literally means "without parts," suggesting establishment in the unfragmented, seamless, solid Awareness). He was also appointed as the spiritual head of the Inchegeri branch of Navnath Sampradaya, the 'Nine Masters’ tradition, a place he retained through his life.

In 1937, he left Mumbai and travelled across India. Through realising the shortcomings of a totally unworldly life and the greater spiritual fruitfulness of dispassionate action, he eventually returned to his family in Mumbai in 1938. It was there that he spent the rest of his life.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:33 pm

I apologize ridesforever. I should have realized your purpose was to prove an irrelevant detail.

Again: Stop being so childish. Observe your proclivity to throw a tantrum at everything. Observe your fears--stop trapping yourself in the singular ever-going lament that everyone else is a moron and the world is lost. Stop misconstruing your negativity for "passion." The world is not making you unhappy--only you are.

Take a look. That's the only requiriement. You actually do have to look.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:39 pm

Through realising the shortcomings of a totally unworldly life and the greater spiritual fruitfulness of dispassionate action, he eventually returned to his family in Mumbai in 1938. It was there that he spent the rest of his life.


^^That's nice.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:42 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Through realising the shortcomings of a totally unworldly life and the greater spiritual fruitfulness of dispassionate action, he eventually returned to his family in Mumbai in 1938. It was there that he spent the rest of his life.


^^That's nice.


Yes, quite so. Thanks for pointing it out in the noise. You do that very well.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby rideforever » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:43 pm

karmarider wrote:the singular ever-going lament that everyone else is a moron

I wouldn't say you are a moron, just like many people on the planet you rush to help people in need and don't know what you are doing.

You don't have the guts to say : "Oh yes, I see now, I didn't actually know how Nisargadatta lived."

And let's not forget at the bottom of each of your posts is a link to your website, where people are invited to pay by Visa.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:50 pm

rideforever wrote:You don't have the guts to say : "Oh yes, I see now, I didn't actually know how Nisargadatta lived."


Ah, yes. Let me say this unequivocally. You were completely right about the time of death of Nisargadatta's guru.

You were right. I was wrong.

I was wrong. You were right.

I hope this brings a little bit of lightness in your existence.

And let's not forget at the bottom of each of your posts is a link to your website, where people are invited to pay by Visa.


You've brought this up at least twice. Is this the thorn in your side about me? If it is, you'll just have to get over it.

My website is free and all it is, is an attempt to authentically journal my own journey. It's just human conversation. It is completely consistent with this forum. I in fact recommend this forum on my site; and the moderators here have no issues with my signature.

Get over it.

I don't have the skill to deal with your particular kind of pain-body. I'll even say that your cynicism might actually help you in your journey. But not until you actually start the journey.

Stop being so childish. The world is not against you. You are.

Your knowledge about Nisargadatta is lost on you if you don't actually do the looking. Look.
Last edited by karmarider on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby abc123 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:58 am

Haven't watched the video but most 'neuroscientists' will explain only the mechanics not the reason. I think this salesman may be the same. Mostly intellectually based.

Why is there free will ? To learn,interact and grown our quality in this constrained environment. It's not logical to dismiss free will.

Thomas Campbell puts it : Free will is an essential characteristic of evolving consciousness systems whose goal is to lower entropy (become Love).Without consciousness, there can be no free will since nothing exists to make a choice. Without free will, consciousness would only be a deterministic script or purposeless process and therefore could not evolve by making profitable choices.....It should also be noted that a choice is made at the being-level of conscious intent; free will choice is generally not an intellectual decision.
Last edited by abc123 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:30 pm

Thanks for the input ABC. Thomas Campbell is an excellent resource.

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Re: The best explanation of free will ever

Postby Rick » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:09 pm

Webwanderer wrote:The significant issue is is there a Real Doer? And could (did?) this Doer pass the capacity for doing into unique perspectives within its own being, even if limited within certain environments?

WW


What does "the capacity for doing" with a unique perspective mean? Any examples of what that would look like?
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