Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:02 am

Phil2 wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:
I'd love to compare our opinions on this subject matter to see how we both viewed Tom Campbell's message in the 51 minute video posted above.

So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this particular video Phil that you chose to respond to.

:D


I think "love" has nothing to do with this Mike ... your ego would just be satisfied to be right by proving me wrong ... isn't it so ?

??


LOL. Phil, what in gods name are you talking about? I'm scratching my head because I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about anywhere in this thread. Literally, none. Your posts have been completely irrelevant to anything pertaining to the topic at hand.

YOU chose to respond to this thread on your own ridiculing Tom Campbell, without ever watching a second of the video and then preceded to write your own views on science which I attempted to reiterate to you, has nothing at all to do with the video posted. I then posed the idea to you that your own bias with the word science perhaps was preventing you from grasping the message of the video and you've just gone completely haywire with a bunch of silly, childish nonsensical posts unrelated to anything of relevance to this thread.

So, I don't know what you're talking about and I really just don't care. I'm not interested in a debate with you here about egos, because this has nothing to do with egoes and that's just your own defense card the minute anyone tries to give you any constructive criticism. Literally, this is all you do on this board. You try to antagonize people into arguments for absolutely no reason and it is so so so unloving and I have to ask what pains you so much that you do this? Why does every thread of yours have to go in this direction? You've completely deviated the direction of the thread on your own. You don't have to accept Tom Campbell's message. But, is it so hard for you to see that....hmm...maybe you jumped the gun a bit by presumptuously commenting on something you never even gave a fleeting breath of a chance to understand?

Please, If you have nothing to say to contribute to the actual topic at hand, and if you're going to continue to refuse to answer questions pertaining to the actual video posted, that's fine, but, please, as you love to say...."Just Be Quiet". Or else the moderators are going to step in and I don't blame them.

Thanks Phil
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Clouded » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:34 am

Phil, I was browsing for Dalai Lama quotes and found this:

Image

Even the great Dalai Lama is a proponent of scientific findings. E2B and Ashley must be delighted.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:02 am

Clouded wrote:E2B and Ashley must be delighted.


I'm probably one of the least scientific people on the board ironically at least by mainstream standards.

I just think there's a place for everything when understood in balance of how it can be applied. I research NDE's and I consider that a type of science. Yet, others would not consider it such. The term science can mean a plethora of things to a wide many people. What one considers evidence, another chalks up to non evidence. Modern mainstream science sadly is often blinded by its own limitations, stemming from the limited human perspective, but at the same time, if it weren't for science, it would be a whole lot tougher navigating through physical reality without the information we currently know.

It's understanding balance as I see it without going too far to any extreme (Idealism vs. materialism) and we've seen both on this board. Of course awakening and all spiritual matter is beyond science and beyond the mind. But, that doesn't make science nor the mind evil which some people tend to do. Science if approached from a more open minded place such as Tom Campbell or other open minded scientists approach, can be a nice complement I find.

To each their own of course.
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Phil2 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:47 am

Clouded wrote:Even the great Dalai Lama is a proponent of scientific findings. E2B and Ashley must be delighted.


Did you notice there is an "IF" in the DL's statement ?
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Phil2 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:51 am

Enlightened2B wrote:I'm not interested in a debate with you here about egos, because this has nothing to do with egoes ... Why does every thread of yours have to go in this direction?


Because our ego is ultimately what really interests us, no ?

??

When you defend yourself trying to prove you are right and make the other is wrong, this is ego operating, no ?

??
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:46 pm

Phil2 wrote:Because our ego is ultimately what really interests us, no ?


apparently it interests you quite a lot since that's all you've talked about in this entire thread. 8)
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby karmarider » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:35 pm

This topic has veered off a bit.

I like science. I think it has the possibility of meeting awakening. The scientific process is the same as the awakening process. Both require observation, honesty, and the dropping of all assumptions. Awakening is turned inward; science looks outward.

I haven't watched the posted video, but I've seen other stuff from Tom Campbell, Amit Goswami, etc. The idea that physical space and time cannot exist has some support in science now, through the double-slit experiment and the Heisenberg principle and quantum mechanics concepts. The idea that consciousness is the basic unit of existence is gaining ground with some scientists. Sam Harris I think is a scientist (I haven't read his book, Waking Up, yet, but I'm guessing that he is waking up and not dismissive of science).

But for now mainstream science cannot get away from the idea of an objective, pokeable universe. I think it will.

It's true that science, nor any other concept, can describe non-dual awareness. But it can describe the manifestation of awareness, which is what science is about.
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:28 pm

Thanks for contributing to the thread KR.

I probably mis titled the thread because it's not a scientific video at all and I can understand how one would grasp that notion just from looking at the title.

KR said: It's true that science, nor any other concept, can describe non-dual awareness. But it can describe the manifestation of awareness, which is what science is about.


Yes, indeed. Yet, it's the dogmatic approach to its craft where it limits itself with its head in the sand in only seeing this objective physical Universe of separation without taking its own Being into consideration as a huge part of the dilemma as Max Planck said and understanding from its own perspective that what we are studying in science is merely just a manifestation of something greater. Science is not the problem. The study of the physical universe is not the problem. The problem is the belief in physicality alone like another form of religion which is where the modern atheist movement seems to be heading. Anything that can't be proven physically is said not to exist, not understanding that physicality and what you are as Being are one and the same. Therefore, mainstream science is not being true to itself by intentionally limiting itself to only part of the picture via belief.

Sam Harris is a neuro scientist and believe it or not is NOT on board with the Universal Consciousness idea. He is an avid meditator, but somehow on this very forum, Sam Harris has become an icon for science in the direction of Universal Consciousness, but he actually argues vehemently against the notion.

The double slit experiment to me has been misinterpreted by some as I've come to see. Some have taken it to mean that a human observer is all that is needed to bring physical reality into existence which is simply not the case. As a result, people have convinced themselves that reality fails to exist when a human observer is not looking at it which is just silly and dangerously delusional if you ask me as it borders on solipsism. Instead, it's the interaction of particles with each other which can also be an act of observation. Meaning, particles themselves are observers in their own right and not just a human consciousness. Meaning, the greater thing I've taken out of the experiment is that consciousness exists at every level of Being including particles. It's just a different degree of Awareness for a particle than that of a human.

This is why I personally don't take those scientific experiments alone as evidence of a Universal Consciousness because I think it just gets too jumbled up and confused by certain people.

I like science too, as long as it's understood that it can never bring one to awakening alone. I do think science can meet spirituality though and there doesn't need to be the great divide some people like to make between the two. I've found with the study of non physical realities along with scientists like Tom Campbell, they can bring one to a greater understanding via pointing (just like a spiritual teacher) and eventually point one in the direction towards awakening.

Awakening to me is no longer the realization of a non-dual Awareness. Well, that's part of it. But, awakening is having the willingness to go beyond the scope of the limited conditioned perspective to understand that all of the answers have been there always if we are merely willing to look and embrace that which is considered ludicrous by some. That perspective widens more and more as awakening happens over time. It's not a static event as I see it.

Mainstream Science on the other hand still has its head in the sand in its refusal to go outside of that limited scope of its own narrow perspective and embrace the answers which it has closed itself off from seeing because of its own dogmatic beliefs.

This is why people like Tom Campbell are such a breath of fresh air in my opinion in their courage and willingness to embrace 'dangerous' territory.
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Phil2 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:25 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
Phil2 wrote:Because our ego is ultimately what really interests us, no ?


apparently it interests you quite a lot since that's all you've talked about in this entire thread. 8)


Yes I have observed and talked about your ego ... while you have fought and struggled to defend it ...

:lol:
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Phil2 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:35 pm

karmarider wrote:
It's true that science, nor any other concept, can describe non-dual awareness. But it can describe the manifestation of awareness, which is what science is about.


Science goes further than mere observation or description of the manifested world ... science tries to control the outside world by creating laws of behaviour (so called scientific laws) that emprison how things should be or happen ... it creates an illusional autonomy of a material world separate from awareness itself ... and this is arrogance in fact ... it is like telling God how He should behave ...

Reminds me of a famous controversy between Einstein and Bohr, when Einstein said "I am convinced that God does not throw dice." and Bohr, in response, said, "Einstein, don't tell God what to do."

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:02 pm

Phil2 wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:
Phil2 wrote:Because our ego is ultimately what really interests us, no ?


apparently it interests you quite a lot since that's all you've talked about in this entire thread. 8)


Yes I have observed and talked about your ego ... while you have fought and struggled to defend it ...

:lol:


Ok Jean....whatever you say.

Have a nice day :D
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:47 pm

Phil said:
Science goes further than mere observation or description of the manifested world ... science tries to control the outside world by creating laws of behaviour (so called scientific laws) that emprison how things should be or happen ... it creates an illusional autonomy of a material world separate from awareness itself ... and this is arrogance in fact ... it is like telling God how He should behave ...

Well there's only one person here seeking to control Phil, so does that put you in the 'science' camp in your own mind?

I don't see science trying to control anything, I see it as offering deeper and wider understanding of 'stuff', mostly by the elimination of previously flawed definitions >> what a thing is not, as suggested by the Dalai Lama quote.

E2B is right that when scientists embrace some of the trickier things that point to what a thing is 'not' while still without being able to tie down what it 'is', is in many ways courageous, magnanimous, altruistic, honest, generous and compassionate --- oh wait, they are characteristics of love :o

It was the Dalai Lama and his monks that furthered neuroscience's awareness of the deeper levels of consciousness - by him watching a computer generated modelling of lower frequency brain patterns and saying, well put one of the monks in an MRI and you'll see the same thing. They did.

In NDE research it has been scientific practitioners testing and eliminating the theories of what it might be and proving those that it is not - that have continued to push the understanding deeper and wider.

That, for me, is the same principles that allow deeper awareness and awakening from what things are not, even when they appear to be, on the surface level.

Time absolutely is not what we think it is, and when we grasp that there will be all sorts of growth.

I like a quote from 'Too soon old, too late smart' Dr Livingstone - it says

'If the map in your hand disagrees with the ground, the map is wrong.'

There are two camps in both science and life, those that keep holding to the map even as they fall in a lake or butt their heads up against a mountain because it's not on their map. They look at their map again and argue that the lake and the mountain should not be there, therefore cannot be there, against the reality in front of their noses that it is there. It is what it is no matter how much they deny it.

And those that see the lake and the mountain and respond accordingly as they move forward. They look again at the map and say well we need to change the map because those following in our footsteps are going to get lost with this one.

The scientists and the philosophers who are prepared to change their map are not about controlling, they are about being honest about, and accepting of, and generous with and towards, what is.
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:06 am

On the 'off topic' elements let's consider why we are all here as a discussion community....

Discussion: Consideration of a subject/s by a group; an earnest conversation.

>>>Consideration: careful thought, typically over a period of time.

>>> Earnest: Showing or expressing sincerity or seriousness. With a purposeful or sincere interest.

>>> Conversation: a talk, especially an informal one, between two or more people, in which news and ideas are exchanged.


To overlay a 'should' or 'should not' energy into the mix and tell people to be quiet, or how many words to use or what topics are worthy of discussion, in a discussion community, is a response to a topic seeking control and diverting attention from the topic at hand, imho.

Phil, what triggers this in you to respond this way?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Clouded » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:16 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:On the 'off topic' elements let's consider why we are all here as a discussion community....

Discussion: Consideration of a subject/s by a group; an earnest conversation.

>>>Consideration: careful thought, typically over a period of time.

>>> Earnest: Showing or expressing sincerity or seriousness. With a purposeful or sincere interest.

>>> Conversation: a talk, especially an informal one, between two or more people, in which news and ideas are exchanged.


To overlay a 'should' or 'should not' energy into the mix and tell people to be quiet, or how many words to use or what topics are worthy of discussion, in a discussion community, is a response to a topic seeking control and diverting attention from the topic at hand, imho.

Phil, what triggers this in you to respond this way?


I'm not taking sides here (I really do appreciate your contribution to this forum, Phil), but I think that this is a very smart observation.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: Tom Campbell-Holographic Evolution

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:26 am

My guess is Phil will make most any post about someone else's ego including this one. To bad. Phil is a smart guy and often insightful. Unfortunately his obsession with making others the problem obscures the real value he could offer. No doubt he will retort something about my ego or point out some envisioned error to deflect from the real issue he could address and make some valuable progress. Waiting....

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