The Ego Is My Friend

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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun May 24, 2015 8:26 am

(backing up a couple of pages, quietly cheering from the sidelines :D ) I too loved your sharing Fore (hello old friend :D ) and I also loved the grace & gratitude awareness that accompanied & met it. I've been sitting back reading this, wondering if it would ever get 'there/here' :wink:

Fore said: I appreciate the kind words guys.
I hope that the point of experience being bodily(five senses) and not out of body(no five senses) is a little clearer. I do understand what most consider out of body experiences to be in a conventional sense, but I disagree with these as they are experiences that incorporate the sense doors.

I understand both sides - those that do know the difference from experience and find it difficult to describe without employing 'sense' words - even if by the absence of ... there is still a knowing of sensory perception of self and others; and those that are working from a level of trying to understand the articulations of the experiences, possibly looking more at the sign than where it is pointing.

While articulating about my own nde, I speak of knowing only after hearing/feeling/knowing that the nurse tending my body was concerned and (I think/believe) said that my body was 'so cold' that they had to warm me up. In my own awareness, I was the perfect temperature ---- while I describe that it was the perfect equilibrium of hot<=>cold, it doesn't really mean that there was any sense of temperature, but I still hold that it was equilibrium of all possible temperatures collapsed.

Matter, all matter and all energy at its highest, purest frequency loses the distinctions of the elements that combine to make it so by individuality - a really simple awareness of it is grace - (nice pick up Zen!).

When one brings oneself into grace one cannot be other than in presence and open to the highest & lightest energies. Then ego dissolves.


(eg Fore... how did you 'know' that the 'man' heard... the woman's voice and know that the voice was 'loving'?)


It's kind of the same with clair, precog, empath stuff as well, one has to recognise that one is not totally confined to one skin, one mind, one place, one time, but one also has to be respectful of the various levels of awareness of that.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Fore » Sun May 24, 2015 1:33 pm

Onceler wrote:You don't understand it because I don't understand it. The longer I live, the less sure I am of things. It feels kinda good not to know or imagine I know. I honestly think all roads lead to something, shall we say meaningful. That's it. That's all I know. And that's just a hunch. How would I know anything else?


It was confusing to me Onceler, when I followed this statement back, it got jumbled up, and I was hoping for a bit more depth of explanation from you. It is an interesting play of words. I'm sure we all have different definitions of words here, and this can get confusing.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Fore » Sun May 24, 2015 1:38 pm

Mystic wrote:
This is true for me. Daily meditation helps very much to become more aware and experience what Eckhart Tolle calls "Presence".


This is true for me also, without daily meditation, I find presence weakening and the thinking(attachment) growing in strength.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Fore » Sun May 24, 2015 2:27 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote: While articulating about my own nde, I speak of knowing only after hearing/feeling/knowing that the nurse tending my body was concerned and (I think/believe) said that my body was 'so cold' that they had to warm me up. In my own awareness, I was the perfect temperature ---- while I describe that it was the perfect equilibrium of hot<=>cold, it doesn't really mean that there was any sense of temperature, but I still hold that it was equilibrium of all possible temperatures collapsed.


Hi Jen, if you were aware of the nurse, sounds, tactile sensations, thinking, then you were very much in body, the six sense doors were fully functional, were they your familiar bodies six sense doors? Probably not, you were most likely experiencing a much more pleasant subtle realm. But, still very much within body.

smiileyjen101 wrote: When one brings oneself into grace one cannot be other than in presence and open to the highest & lightest energies. Then ego dissolves.

Not necessarily, one may be aware of the lowest fields of hell, one may simply observe these energetic entities without attachment and offer space for these entities to come out of this misery, to cool off, to enlighten.
One may also simply observe the highest and lightest energetic entities, and give space for these entities to liberate from suffering.
It is however more common for us to experience these higher entities, and due to the pleasant feeling associated with them cling to them, then we are creating self, a very pleasant sense of self, but self none the less. In some time this pleasantness will wear off and soon will turn to aversion, we turn from the light and head to darkness.
You are correct that while heading from dark to the light the egoic curtain begins to dissolve, but are you using a trick to generate these higher vibrations or are you walking the path and gaining the wisdom to come out of darkness for good. Are you liberating the darkness or simply running from it. If you are running from it you will not end suffering, you will continually be giving fuel to future self(rebirth). If you are walking the path you are liberating all these energetic entities from this universe of experience.


smiileyjen101 wrote: (eg Fore... how did you 'know' that the 'man' heard... the woman's voice and know that the voice was 'loving'?)

Because I was at this point still in body, the sense doors were fully functional.


smiileyjen101 wrote: It's kind of the same with clair, precog, empath stuff as well, one has to recognise that one is not totally confined to one skin, one mind, one place, one time, but one also has to be respectful of the various levels of awareness of that.

These are special powers that come with heightened Samadhi, they can however be seductive and stop ones progress, one can get caught up(identify) with these higher realms and progress will stop.
This is where the importance of the object of focus comes into play. Some feel it necessary to master these Samadhi's and then direct awareness (this well greased machine) into the true nature of reality, others take a more direct approach(start up there rusty clunker) and rumble along the rough road.

The former seems to be favoured by recluses and some monastics, people who have left the lay-life and do not face the same mundane responsibilities(jobs, grocery shopping, kids, etc...) as you and I. The latter seems more appropriate for lay folk, we practice with the level of awareness present, this can and is often a painful approach, as we venture through one trauma after another.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun May 24, 2015 4:42 pm

Fore wrote:
smiileyjen101 wrote: While articulating about my own nde, I speak of knowing only after hearing/feeling/knowing that the nurse tending my body was concerned and (I think/believe) said that my body was 'so cold' that they had to warm me up. In my own awareness, I was the perfect temperature ---- while I describe that it was the perfect equilibrium of hot<=>cold, it doesn't really mean that there was any sense of temperature, but I still hold that it was equilibrium of all possible temperatures collapsed.

Hi Jen, if you were aware of the nurse, sounds, tactile sensations, thinking, then you were very much in body, the six sense doors were fully functional, were they your familiar bodies six sense doors? Probably not, you were most likely experiencing a much more pleasant subtle realm. But, still very much within body.


Fore, Loved your earlier sharing in this thread. Love the recommendations on meditation and your posts with Jack have gotten me to see also that part of my own problems of late were putting the cart before the horse in terms of 'presence' and getting ahead of myself for sure. I've been setting aside time for a practice everyday for over a week now.

Can I ask of you to please watch the link I posted earlier in this thread? I'll post it again here. Just give it a watch and see what you think. Not asking you to do anything else, just give it a watch. I've made multiple mentions of it to you, but you have not commented on it yet. What you described in your own experience was quite profound for sure, and it was incredibly beautiful, but that doesn't mean you had an actual OBE. It's not important whether you do understand this subject matter or not conceptually, and I'm not asking you take up another form of 'experiential distraction' to the practice of presence or another belief. And I was able to accept from your posts that your pointers towards presence for me, were great indicators that I was perhaps caught up in too much conceptual mind stuff.

But, now I'm asking you to possibly accept something that I'm pointing out to you that there's a good chance you and I simply don't have all of the answers right now. As you keep bringing up this same issue that any form of sense perception, basically indicates they are still in the body,, when I'm trying to get you to see that just perhaps, maybe there's more to understand about OBE's than you and I already do? I only pose this idea to you to open yourself up to a wider understanding perhaps. I'm simply asking you to hold aside all opinions on this subject matter and to watch a link on what an OBE actually is from a guy who is one of the world's leading expert's on OBE's. But, it's not just him. Smiley Jen had a NDE and it's been described in detail on this board. Nanci Danison had one of the most profound NDE's recorded ever, and she too had much sense perception in her experience in the early stages as have Mellon Thomas Benedict, Lani Leary, Natalie Sudman, Anita Moorjani, plus the majority of other NDE's and the millions upon millions upon millions of people who have had OBE's, while they were still in the lower, dense realms. Unless you'd like to discount millions upon millions of people's experiences in near death experiences and out of body exploration, perhaps it's safer sometimes to say.....'I don't have all of the answers right now'.

Onceler wrote a very lovely post earlier in this thread that sometimes it's ok not to know and to simply to surrender to the idea that 'I don't have all of the answers right now'. Meaning, even in our experiences, they are just our own experiences. That includes you and I as well. Until you and I actually die , we can't know all of the answers experientially. Your own experiences in meditation are not disqualified and if anything, are enhanced, greatly by the fact that you've had them and shared them so vulnerably on this very forum, but once again, they are just your experiences in meditation.

I don't want to get into a back and forth here. All I'm asking is very simple.....just watch the link if you choose to and let me know what you think if you'd like.

Here's the link again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omKS82YDjIY

Have a great Memorial Weekend, if you live in the States.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Fore » Mon May 25, 2015 1:32 am

Enlightened2B wrote: As you keep bringing up this same issue that any form of sense perception, basically indicates they are still in the body,, when I'm trying to get you to see that just perhaps, maybe there's more to understand about OBE's than you and I already do?

I watched most of the video, it was not different to what my current understanding of what these people are experiencing. Even this man being interviewed says that the term out of body(OBE) is not a good expression as you are not leaving the body but going deeper. His example leaving the skin of the apple and going in to the apple. This is exactly what I am trying to get across to you and others, it is not an out of body experience, it is simply a depth experience within samsara, you are simply experiencing subtler or heavier realms of existence. The body is still there in these higher realms it is just not that apparent it is extremely subtle but if you pay close attention a slight subtle vibration is experienced. This is not permanent this state also is in a continuous state of change, therefore it is unsatisfactory. Seeing this and not getting caught up in identification with this experience, one can let go of this experience and progress beyond this. You are not this subtle body of experience, this is not your true nature. Only when the six sense doors cease to function, you are "that" which remains, which is eternal.

The man in this video is confused, you are not separating consciousness from body with these experiences, you are simply examining the apple. This will not end suffering as long as you remain in belief that you are any part of this apple. This attachment to form must be come out of, also attachment to formless must also be come out of.
He may be using some interesting methods to bring about these experiences, but this will not end suffering, this will not lead to your true nature(peace). He even states how exciting this is and that after your first experience you want more to occur, this is craving, the root cause of self creation. He is not coming out of craving in the least. He is intensifying his desire for these experiences. This is already the habit of mind, and not something to further feed. I mean the universe is infinite, there is something new around every corner. There is no realm that will satisfy your craving for answers.

Examining the apple, looking deeply at the apple is necessary, but you must look to see that, this is not you, to break the attachment towards this form, otherwise we are simply doing Samadhi practice, there is no wisdom.
If we have a sex addiction(and everyone here does to some degree), will more sex ever satisfy this addiction. Will you ever have that perfect sexual partner that brings satisfaction? No, you won't, it is not possible. The sense doors are continually experiencing colours and sounds, and smells and sensations, and mind is continually reacting towards these. These are experienced as vibration, they are moving, they are agitated, they are ripples on the pond. How can one be at peace with this agitation, if they believe to be this agitation. Being your true nature, you are observing this agitation(misery) for what it is, you are not creating stories to identify with, you are not hoping to be something after you die, you are merely this observing presence. This observing presence can witness anything, the darkest most painful depth of hell and there is no fear, only peace and tranquility. It is like when you hurt yourself, I observe this, but feel no pain.

Enlightened2B wrote: I only pose this idea to you to open yourself up to a wider understanding perhaps.

If you want to explore the apple and see all the different realms first, go ahead. But this will not cure the anxiety you experience, it may temporarily uplift you but you will still have these lower realms accessable to you. It may be interesting perhaps, but no liberative wisdom will come from this. If you incorporate the field of wisdom, I'm certain all these mysteries will unfold naturally for you, and you will gradually come out of these anxieties. You will not crave for these experiences, you will see them for what they are(part of the veil of ignorance).



Enlightened2B wrote: I'm simply asking you to hold aside all opinions on this subject matter and to watch a link on what an OBE actually is from a guy who is one of the world's leading expert's on OBE's. But, it's not just him. Smiley Jen had a NDE and it's been described in detail on this board. Nanci Danison had one of the most profound NDE's recorded ever, and she too had much sense perception in her experience in the early stages as have Mellon Thomas Benedict, Lani Leary, Natalie Sudman, Anita Moorjani, plus the majority of other NDE's and the millions upon millions upon millions of people who have had OBE's, while they were still in the lower, dense realms. Unless you'd like to discount millions upon millions of people's experiences in near death experiences and out of body exploration, perhaps it's safer sometimes to say.....'I don't have all of the answers right now'.

These experiences are simply what they are, experiences of the sense doors, they have come and gone but we dredge them up, we can't let go of them, we are attached to them and give so much importance to them. All the time the sense doors are experiencing stuff NOW, but we don't care to look closely at this, this does not interest us. Don't nearly die, but die, experience death over and over again. Every moment observe the arising and passing of phenomenon, the birth of a new breath and then its passing. Observe death continuously. Look deeply at this continuous cycle of birth and death, its right under your nose, it's been happening from the time you were born. We want answers, and they are right there in plain view. No need to go out of body.


Enlightened2B wrote: Onceler wrote a very lovely post earlier in this thread that sometimes it's ok not to know and to simply to surrender to the idea that 'I don't have all of the answers right now'. Meaning, even in our experiences, they are just our own experiences.

They are just experiences, no need to label them or give ownership to them. They have come and gone, no need to hold on.


Enlightened2B wrote: Have a great Memorial Weekend, if you live in the States.

I'm in Canada, took Friday off and took the kids to Canada's Wonderland , rode a bat and a dragon, golfed all weekend, blissful misery. Hope you had a great long week-end also.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby DavidB » Mon May 25, 2015 2:25 am

rachMiel wrote:
DavidB wrote:This is why I always recommend abandoning the spiritual path, as that path simply personifies the same pattern of victim hood as before but much more covertly. It's a further identification, further formalization of self, but now achieving spiritual transformation. The Ego has come in through the back door, and loves it.

I see you and raise you: Abandon all paths that lead to an imagined somewhere, all striving to become better/different/enlightened/whole. Just let it all go ... and relax into your present experience.


Yes indeed, sound advice. :D
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby DavidB » Mon May 25, 2015 2:36 am

Fore wrote:
rachMiel wrote: I see you and raise you: Abandon all paths that lead to an imagined somewhere, all striving to become better/different/enlightened/whole. Just let it all go ... and relax into your present experience.


I'm calling your bluff. Is this what you tell someone suffering from anxiety or depression? Just relax fella, let it go, simply be this experience. Your gonna get punched in the face rach.



Having been myself a past sufferer of generalized anxiety, panic attacks and depression, I can say for myself at least, that relaxing into present experience is the most effective way to deal with anxiety related disorders. Thankfully, punching someone in the face for offering this advice, never arose as a legitimate course of action, for me at least anyway. :wink:
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby rachMiel » Mon May 25, 2015 4:32 am

Fore wrote:
rachMiel wrote: I see you and raise you: Abandon all paths that lead to an imagined somewhere, all striving to become better/different/enlightened/whole. Just let it all go ... and relax into your present experience.

I'm calling your bluff. Is this what you tell someone suffering from anxiety or depression? Just relax fella, let it go, simply be this experience. Your gonna get punched in the face rach.

If someone asked for my advice, the first thing I'd do is try to determine what kind of advice they needed at that moment. Then I'd do my best to formulate the advice to meet their needs.

If they were in a serious crisis, I probably wouldn't tell them to relax into it.

But, aside from a serious crisis or other highly volatile condition, I probably WOULD tell them to relax into it.

Luckily, for all involved, I very rarely get asked for advice. ;-)
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby rachMiel » Mon May 25, 2015 4:36 am

DavidB wrote:Having been myself a past sufferer of generalized anxiety, panic attacks and depression, I can say for myself at least, that relaxing into present experience is the most effective way to deal with anxiety related disorders.

Similar experience here. :-)

It's not easy to relax into the tough stuff. One's conditioning screams against it, is driven instead to act, fight, flight, resist, escape, repress.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon May 25, 2015 6:10 am

Fore wrote:I watched most of the video, it was not different to what my current understanding of what these people are experiencing. Even this man being interviewed says that the term out of body(OBE) is not a good expression as you are not leaving the body but going deeper. His example leaving the skin of the apple and going in to the apple. This is exactly what I am trying to get across to you and others, it is not an out of body experience, it is simply a depth experience within samsara, you are simply experiencing subtler or heavier realms of existence.


Absolutely. If you and I are merely disagreeing on a matter of terminology, well that's understandable. But, yes, I resonated too with what he said about 'going within' as opposed to actually 'going out of the body'. Because there is not actual 'going out' of body. Out of Body Exploration, ironically just like any form of meditation is actually 'going within'.

The man in this video is confused, you are not separating consciousness from body with these experiences, you are simply examining the apple. This will not end suffering as long as you remain in belief that you are any part of this apple.


Curious that you would make this claim that this would not end suffering. Unless, you've been in William and others shoes, I'd say you can't really possibly know this. He actually describes very much so in his books (and his videos as well) how his fear of death and life are completely gone from understanding his true nature and understanding the greater web of connectedness of reality (What SmileyJen learned in her own NDE). William says it actually in this very video. As have countless other out of body explorers and near deathers (who I've written about many times) who have completely abolished suffering by gaining a direct non physical experiential knowing of who they are and a greater understanding of their eternal nature. There are thousands upon thousands of reports of how completely transformed and enlightened they were from simply having profound out of body experiences (because basically NDE's are just profound out of body experiences) if you'd like to research them. Out of Body exploration is clearly not the only path, nor even the most feasible for some people. Just like insight meditation for you, out of body exploration and techniques is simply another path to explore which can most certainly lead to enlightenment, if you don't put the term 'enlightenment' into a dark box. Meaning, If you believe there is only one path, you merely limit yourself to that one path and then, in return, it might appear that everyone else who's experience differs from your own, will seem 'confused' of course.

I'd say, use whatever works for you. If you find insight meditation to be transformational in your own experience in awakening, then by all means, keep at it, as it's worked for thousands of Buddhists in the past, and if you choose to explore out of body exploration in an attempt to further your understanding of your nature, then keep at it as well. I'm meditating every day for over a week now(used to do it daily for years) indoors, outdoors, and incorporating mindfulness into every activity of my day. I take multiple moments throughout the day to simply connect with presence and allow my experience to be and most certainly am choosing to explore this path because it brings me joy in my life as does out of body exploration. There's an inner knowing inside of me that feels right when I explore this path of out of body exploration and I'm most certainly not going to stop, but I also understand that it's just one avenue.

He may be using some interesting methods to bring about these experiences, but this will not end suffering, this will not lead to your true nature(peace).


Again, it already has ended suffering for him and countless other people who have explored the same path who already have discovered their true nature. So, not sure where you are getting this information from. Sounds more like a belief of yours.


I'm in Canada, took Friday off and took the kids to Canada's Wonderland , rode a bat and a dragon, golfed all weekend, blissful misery. Hope you had a great long week-end also.


haha, rode a bat. I love how you just kind of threw that in there so casually. Sounds like an awesome weekend. Hope you and the kids enjoyed and don't forget to go watch some hockey! (I'm a big hockey fan)
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Fore » Mon May 25, 2015 12:27 pm

rachMiel wrote:
It's not easy to relax into the tough stuff. One's conditioning screams against it, is driven instead to act, fight, flight, resist, escape, repress.


This is the point I was getting at, If anger has consumed someone, and you simply walk up to this person and say "dude, you need to relax into this experience" you have a good chance of getting slapped. In this situation as well as high anxiety, it may be better to redirect ones attention away from these states, "you are hurting, would you like a cup of camomile tea, and a comfortable chair" even this could end in disaster space may be the only option to help at times.
When the individual has regained a state of calm, directing their awareness to these states is possible, where they can watch them initially build in strength and subside, this requires some practice.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby DavidB » Mon May 25, 2015 3:22 pm

rachMiel wrote:
DavidB wrote:Having been myself a past sufferer of generalized anxiety, panic attacks and depression, I can say for myself at least, that relaxing into present experience is the most effective way to deal with anxiety related disorders.

Similar experience here. :-)

It's not easy to relax into the tough stuff. One's conditioning screams against it, is driven instead to act, fight, flight, resist, escape, repress.


Yes of course, as with many things, the solution appears paradoxical and counter intuitive.

I know for myself, sometimes emotion can be an intense experience, a powerful motivator for potential havoc and destruction. As difficult as it can be at times, I am grateful that these emotional experiences are there to teach me so much about my world, the human condition and my self. Without adversity there would be no growth, no evolution.

Interestingly, the Ego is the modern equivalent of Satan. In Judaism, The Satan is the archangel, understood to represent adversity, challenge and difficulty. So Satan is a powerful means for transformation, without which, transformation is impossible.

Adversity, challenge and difficulty doesn't feel very nice, but that's the point. :D
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon May 25, 2015 6:07 pm

Nice post David. I agree with what you say above.

I've enjoyed the back and forth between David and Fore in this thread and the other thread. Both of you guys make good points. As someone who has gone through some anxiety of late as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I can relate to what David says. Yet, I find right now that a balance between practice in the form of mindfulness (throughout the day) is starting to help me a lot in getting back to that observation of life and surrender to my thoughts and feelings and my own fear without making them an enemy. There's a lot of fear in my life that I've come to notice and I used to hate to admit it because it wasn't very spiritual, but spirituality is all about vulnerability. I think Fore's practice methods of meditation can also be very helpful, but that's more of a devotion to a particular path if one chooses to go that route. But, what Fore proposes can also be taken up as a daily practice in the form of mindfulness. Taking moments throughout my day to step back and observe my own experience I find quite helpful in not necessarily identifying with one particular aspect of my experience, but rather embracing it as a whole. Ego is just a limited perspective based on identification with one aspect of our experience. It's not an actual separate entity. Therefore, ego can come in multiple layers of limitation. The human experience is always limited on some level even for the most enlightened masters and therefore, ego will always be a factor until we can all grasp the larger picture once we die.

The psychological advantage to awakening is seeing fear, anxiety and the like as something that we don't have to be necessarily identified with, but something that is still a part of us, and making love to it and embracing it, is the only path to Connection on a higher level. Fear and anxiety I'm noticing is stemming from a causal point either in our childhood or past lives and I don't know if healing it permanently (by uprooting the cause) is necessarily a more helpful method, than just allowing it to be, and focusing our attention elsewhere, which can be equally as effective.
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Re: The Ego Is My Friend

Postby rachMiel » Mon May 25, 2015 7:15 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Fear and anxiety I'm noticing is stemming from a causal point either in our childhood or past lives and I don't know if healing it permanently (by uprooting the cause) is necessarily a more helpful method, than just allowing it to be, and focusing our attention elsewhere, which can be equally as effective.

It's an interesting question, isn't it?

By way of analogy, consider the water that flows out of your kitchen faucet. Let's say it contains some nasty bacteria, or nasty bacteria killers like chlorine, or rust from your pipes, or sulfur, or other impurities.

Do you fix the problem at the point where it manifests with a faucet purifier?

Or do you go upstream and clean your pipes and install a purifier where the water pipe enters the house?

The former is like present awareness, the latter like psychotherapy. Yes?
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