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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Sighclone » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:40 am

I'm just guessing about Eckhart's motives. But it's not read too far between the lines in PON to hear anguish about all the atrocities of war. Speculating about some magic event on January 1, 1900 where the whole world awakens is not my point. But wondering what a world that is awake would be like has shown up here repeatedly over the years in various threads. And I'm not so sure that overpopulation is the likely outcome, either. One thing is certain, there would be more unconditional love.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Suzanne Foxton » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:10 am

Perhaps, just perhaps - please remember I have no idea what I'm talking about - this is Utopia, just as it is. Perhaps the unfolding story, the product of the mind's duty to make things dual and apply time, will always include all opposites. Maybe there is exactly enough unconditional love - an infinite amount - right now; it is always now. Perhaps there will always be actions borne of fear and actions borne of love. Perhaps our small minds and egos cannot judge this accurately, as all things are relative, in duality, in time. Perhaps what is happening isn't the be-all and end-all. Perhaps life on Earth would be "better" if not so directed by the concerns of the ego; but is "better" the goal? Step back, step back, and step back again; question all assumptions. What is the only absolute? Well, who knows, but it's probably something that can be labeled existence, pure and simple. Whatever we are, life flows by it, or arises in it, and it doesn't matter what that is; it is perfect, it is, it cannot be something else. This includes all the appearance of struggle, of fear-driven actions, of inconceivable selflessness, of conflict, of all the ego's machinations and troubles; also all the ego's beauty. What passes by, what arises, is a banquet of incredible plenty and diversity. It is here, it is, it is a miracle that anything seems to exist at all. And, I suppose, it can be relished, even the "bad" bits.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby runstrails » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:10 pm

I can see both Andy’s and Suzanne’s points of view. Both are eloquent and persuasive, making for a terrific discussion.

I think this issue comes back to grasping with the ultimate question: “What is the purpose or meaning of existence?” Most masters (ET, Adya, Anthony DeMello) suggest that no human mind can comprehend the mystery of existence.

But that does not stop me from speculating :D

Imagine, if the reason for existence/maya was for source to manifest or fully experience everything possible (the good, the bad, the ugly). Then, this purpose would be better served via unconscious egos and not through awakened beings.

It’s like when one watches a movie (say a horror movie). The experience of the movie is much more exhilarating if one lets oneself really get emotionally involved in the movie, experiencing all the thrills and chills (i.e., akin to an unconscious ego). On the other hand, if one simply watches the movie with detachment (akin to an awakened being) then the experience of the movie may be diminished somewhat.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:38 pm

I think your take on this has merit runstrails. I cannot envision a totally random universe manifesting the complexities of the life and structures that exists - even if it is ultimately imaginary. Not that it doesn't have a good deal of randomness in it, but its fundamental nature shows exquisite design. So the question arises: can anything so designed not have purpose? Sure there's questions that follow like "who's purpose?" But such a question does not preclude an answer even though it may be beyond the human mind's current capabilities.

Mind may well be evolutionary in nature. A dog or a cat or a chimpanzee has a level of mind, but can it question the nature of its own being? So who's to say the evolution of mind is complete? And is it possible that the purpose of the universe's Creator has more work to do in conscious development of life in form?

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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Suzanne Foxton » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:00 pm

No purpose, other than existence itself, whatever form that seems to take. It simply "is" before it is analysed, sub-divided into "detached awakened beings" vs. "unconscious egos", judged, categorised, rinsed, dried, put away, drawn or quartered. However, the analysis, sub-dividing, categorising, figuring out, speculating, etc. etc. is, indeed, fun.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:26 pm

Suzanne Foxton wrote:No purpose, other than existence itself, whatever form that seems to take. It simply "is"...

Surprisingly definitive. Any room for additional possibilities, or is it case closed? Could "is" include design features such as intent, possibly on a scale beyond human understanding? If your answer continues to be "no", how is it you have come to this perspective? What rules such possibilities out?

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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby runstrails » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:05 pm

If the purpose of existence is 'simply to exist'—then that actually suggests that there is incredible meaning to every single instance of existence. Each and every moment of existence of each and every lifeform counts since it comprises existence.

All the suffering that has occurred is quintessentially meaningful simply by virtue of its occurrence. It occurred, so it counts tremendously. Short miserable lives count as much as long pleasant lives. Violent deaths count as much as peaceful ones and so on. Every single aspect of a lifeform is utterly meaningful.

The only issue to be resolved is, are humans special, are we evolutionary favorites and are we evolving towards a new earth? As WW says, there is no way to know the answer to this.

However, even if we are evolving towards something like an awakened civilization, that future state is not more important than our current state, since every single state of existence is uniquely meaningful.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:35 pm

runstrails wrote:If the purpose of existence is 'simply to exist'—then that actually suggests that there is incredible meaning to every single instance of existence.


Of course this then begs the question: Meaningful to what or who? This is not meant to be rhetorical, but as a pointer to quiet, sensual, consideration. If existence just is, is there an origin?... again, even if existence as we know it is just imaginary? If there is an origin then there is a creator. If there is no origin then there must be magic, because consciousness is regardless of how experience is perceived. Either way the universe and life seems to be miraculous.

It's fun to live in wonder, is it not?

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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby runstrails » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:12 pm

Of course this then begs the question: Meaningful to what or who?


Meaningful to consciousness/source/being/intelligence/us :)

But I do see your point about the origins and evolution of the universe. What an amazing mystery.

It's not easy (or perhaps even possible) to figure out the mystery of existence--but It is fun to wonder indeed!

Either way the universe and life seems to be miraculous.


I could not agree more. In the end, this may be the most important and relevant fact.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby arel » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:32 pm

Isn't there a saying that the highest knowledge is not knowing? The mystery of it.

... again, even if existence as we know it is just imaginary? If there is an origin then there is a creator...


The creator is here right now as the attention pervading everything. We are it and know it, when present.
But it is unknowable. As I sense it, the knowing of it is simply not its quality. Rather the knowing of it by the mind. The mind cannot grasp it.
Funny how this starts to sound all the same paradoxical as I've heard others describe, but there is simply no language to be able to describe it.

I have the urge to delete this because it sounds like the same old crap :)

The urge to describe it, to know it through reading further, looking for other expressions of this, to 'finally' get it, which is so simple and easily knowable, keeps us away from knowing it, directly here and now. Funny.

All the scientific exploration of it. The theories of everything. Will still just come up with pointers, which miss the target. The search will find solutions, which are not "completely accurate", and then we'll need to look further :) We humans are silly.
What I say is only my viewpoint.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby runstrails » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:36 pm

I have the urge to delete this because it sounds like the same old crap


Your post is very insightful. Please do not delete :D
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Suzanne Foxton » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:27 pm

Y'all are having fun, arncha?

The meaninglessness of all happenings is just another way to use (only nominally) useful words to say that every event is equally meaningful. Nothing is happening. There are no rules; rules come up, and schemes, and diagrams, and helpful hints, and vast civilisations. And the story will seem to cycle and repeat, never once actually repeating itself. Such wonder! Ubercool.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Sighclone » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:01 am

One fundamental difference in this conversation is the immanence of compassion and spirit in the 'big picture' or its absence. Suzanne's argument here (quite different from her story on conscious.tv, by the way) is the classical Sartre/Camus existentialism -- dry and desolate, no principal intentions, including Self unfolding into itSelf, just random events (yes, in the only 'real' time, the present moment) -- at least that's how I'm reading it -- no purpose, not even love.

I contrast this with Eckhart, from p. 162 of PON: "If there isn't an emanation of love and joy, complete presence and openness toward all beings, then it is not enlightenment." And a dozen similar phrases from Adya, and a few from Ramana and Nisargadatta.

My personal experiences have also pushed love up to the top of the heap. Just ask my checkbook!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby Suzanne Foxton » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:46 am

Perhaps it's all an expression of love, whether that fits into the tidy definition of unconditional love that the mind likes. Maybe clinging to that definition is yet another thing that keeps the ego seeking, when wonder, oneness, God, love, whatever you care to label it, is all there is - already. It's possible that the unfolding story becomes more an expression of unconditional love when the story is no longer so important; this is the paradox. However, there are no guarantees about the quality of the unfolding story. The ego doesn't understand what's "good" for it, and how suffering is love, in a particularly hard-to-understand guise. There is no formula, no easy way to identify "how to awaken" and no list of rules and actions that can bring awakening about. It is already this. This is love, whatever is seems like; it can be no other, for the story is always perfection; whatever happens, happens. It is tempting to cling to "signs" and "clues" about enlightenment. The ego hates the idea of its own demise, its relegation to unimportance, balks at the idea that there is nothing "better" than the perfection of here, now. Enlightenment is this, whether it is realised or not. Oneness is oneness, whether or not duality is still the be-all and end-all. There is nothing wrong with this, whatever it is, until the mind gets ahold of it and starts applying time and judgment.
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Re: Big Movie Blog

Postby runstrails » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:44 pm

When I am aware/present/attentive then I realize the perfection of life and this is accompanied by a strong feeling/realization of compassion/bliss/love. Of course, this can be short lived and then ego comes rushing in the backdoor :)

The funny thing is that after all the intellectualizing, reading, listening, pondering, it always comes back to the fundamentals---be present/ rest in awareness--- there is very little else to do.
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