Mindfulness... looking for a way out

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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:13 pm

@ rideforever

Exercising is a good thing to do first thing in the morning; I bet it keeps you sane (ish).
It is a good opportunity to follow your breathing. That's what I would suggest. As you run just let your attention be on your breathing. And sort of 'surrender' to it. i am sure it will do nothing in the beginning; but all these things require persistence.
From what you say, I think it is important for you to have a "surrendering" feeling instead of a "forceful" feeling.
If you feel the stress at the front of your head, you can know that that is an indication of using "force".


I've tried following my breathing for years while running, I have been and continue to be very persistent about it. I still do attempt to "let" my attention be on my breathing. As I have been saying I do not get to a point that I can "just surrender to it". I do not get to a surrendering feeling, I only get to the "forced" feeling. The thoughts in my head do not subside long enough for me to just "let" my attention go to my breath. I have to pretty much force my attention there. I attempt this pretty much every morning while running (and have for years). I fully understand (on an intellectual level) what you are saying. I understand the difference between "letting" my attention go to the breath vs. "forcing" my attention to the breath. I understand that the effort to "force" my attention creates it's own stress (not denying that) but I have neber been able to reach a state that will allow me to just "let" my attention go to the breath.


Also I second WW's thoughts on breathwork.
At the moment I am doing 20 mins pranayama every day, and I can tell you it is a strong technique. No BS. That's why I do it. Fast, effective, reliable.
It has made all depressions vanish overnight, plus it cleans up the psyche and makes all the spiritual stuff more accessible.
The 20min routine is :
(seated with spine erect)
Bhastrika : 20 breaths then breathe and hold mahabhanda. Then breathe out and relax wait till breath back to normal. Repeat 3 times in total.
Nadhi Shodan : 20 cycles, a good ratio at the beginning is 1:2:2 ( so 4secs in breath, 8secs holding, 8secs outbreath, or - 5sec:10sec:10sec)
You can find instructions for these easily, this is the standard pranayama for yoga and must be 10,000 years old.


This does sound very similar to the Conscious Connected Breathing that I attempted.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:15 pm

@ karmarider

Not the real you. Just you.
What if feels like to be you. Very ordinary.


I am sorry but I do not understand what this means.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby rideforever » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:33 pm

EMC ... what are you doing here ?
What were you hoping for ?
What are you looking for ?
What would like somebody to say to you ?
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby kiki » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:40 pm

emcconnell wrote:@ karmarider

Not the real you. Just you.
What if feels like to be you. Very ordinary.


I am sorry but I do not understand what this means.


You exist, right? That cannot be denied, so how do you know that you exist? Without referring to any thought of "me" there is still an knowingness of one's existence. Feel that; stay with that for a while and return to that feeling whenever you feel the need.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:52 pm

If really nothing is working then it is only because your outside situation is too stressful.


But I have no control over the actions/reactions of others I can not change these.
The outside situation is as it is, I accept that I can not change it.

Like I said... I have always been looking for a way to alter MY reactions TO my "outside situation".
Isn't that what this is all about?
Accepting our situation as it is. I accept my situation (I don't have to like it but I do accept it) and I can not change it.
Is it stressful? Hell yeah! I get that, I accept that. I wish it were not.
I can only work to change my reactions/thoughts/beliefs.

So does this mean that there are "outside situations" that are just too stressful for this to work?

As I asid before I've been down the "remove myself from the situation" route more than once.
I've chucked it all jobs/houses/wives/friends to seek this path of the understanding of "me" this inner self, this "oneness".
It brought me right back to where I started, only with more of a sense of selfishness rather than selflessness.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:01 pm

You exist, right? That cannot be denied, so how do you know that you exist? Without referring to any thought of "me" there is still an knowingness of one's existence. Feel that; stay with that for a while and return to that feeling whenever you feel the need.


I exist yes. I do not deny that.
How do I know I exist... I have a tangible/physical form, I cast a reflection in a mirror.
Is this what you mean?
It seems to me that you are speaking of some other method of "knowing", some other criteria of knowing of my existence.
Am I wrong about this (I very well could be).


But if you are speaking of some other level or method of "knowing" that I exist then this is exactly what I am saying... I do not 'know" this on any other level, I can not "feel" this on any other level. How can I stay with something that I do not know or feel?

Like i said I may not be understanding what you are saying.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby rachMiel » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:08 pm

emcconnell wrote:
You exist, right? That cannot be denied, so how do you know that you exist? Without referring to any thought of "me" there is still an knowingness of one's existence. Feel that; stay with that for a while and return to that feeling whenever you feel the need.


I exist yes. I do not deny that.
How do I know I exist... I have a tangible/physical form, I cast a reflection in a mirror.
Is this what you mean?
It seems to me that you are speaking of some other method of "knowing", some other criteria of knowing of my existence.
Am I wrong about this (I very well could be).

But if you are speaking of some other level or method of "knowing" that I exist then this is exactly what I am saying... I do not 'know" this on any other level, I can not "feel" this on any other level. How can I stay with something that I do not know or feel?

You're making it too complicated. (I speak from experience!)

Who (or what) is reading these words now? Who/what is interpreting them, forming associations with them, perhaps experiencing emotions from them? Who/what is deciding to respond or not respond?

I am.

Simplify! Go with the subjective feeling, intellectual analysis is in this case not invited to the party. ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby kiki » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:14 pm

I exist yes. I do not deny that.
How do I know I exist... I have a tangible/physical form, I cast a reflection in a mirror.
Is this what you mean?
It seems to me that you are speaking of some other method of "knowing", some other criteria of knowing of my existence.
Am I wrong about this (I very well could be).


Do you really NEED to see a reflection in the mirror or look at your shadow to know you are here? When you are in bed at night and the lights are out you still know that you are present. Right? It doesn't even take thinking to know that you are here. This knowingness is so very simple and ordinary that any thinking about it only tends to get in the way. Acknowledge this knowingness by simply feeling the FACT of your own presence. Relax and sink deeply into that feeling of just being here. There's no need to rely on thinking about this at all. Simply feel your presence and rest in that. The mistake most people make is in trying to think this through, but the answer doesn't exit in thinking.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby oak tree » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:24 pm

emcconnell wrote:I wish I had a dime for every time I have heard a statement like this "just get over it", "suck it up", "what are you complaining about", "pull yourself up by your bootstraps".
If I could "pull up my britches and keep moving" I would.


Yes. I believe you really would if you could. People have said similar things to me in the past, I found it highly exasperating and frustrating. If you can't then you simply can't. You strike me as someone who has tried and is trying their very best. I don't think it it as easy as "just get over it"

I understand it's not just about you, you have a wife and daughter to take care of also. If it was just you then maybe it would be easy to change your situation. It's already been mentioned in this thread about work and stress but I did wonder if your job was part of the problem.... I was once in a stressful job, long hours, and no matter what I did spiritually failed until I left the job. However, your situation might be different. Maybe your job is ok. I don't know.

A few times when I was at rock bottom, at my wit's end I met a spiritual teacher in person (one to one). I don't know how but somehow they got through to me. I think being in the physical presence of someone who is fully present can make a difference. They got through to me in my despair when nothing else worked. This is just a suggestion, maybe you tried this already... I don't know where you live but maybe there is a teacher near you I think some on that list offer private meetings... A short meeting doesn't usually cost very much...

Other suggestions: tai chi, yoga, holistic massage... Spending time in nature not doing anything, maybe just sitting and connecting with your surroundings...
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:40 pm

You're making it too complicated. (I speak from experience!)
Who (or what) is reading these words now? Who/what is interpreting them, forming associations with them, perhaps experiencing emotions from them? Who/what is deciding to respond or not respond?
I am.
Simplify! Go with the subjective feeling, intellectual analysis is in this case not invited to the party.


I am reading these words with my mind it has learned the alphabet and how to string the letters together to form words (and those words in to sentences).
My mind is interpreting these sentences and forming associations with other words and events that I have experienced. I am deciding to respond with words and thoughts that I have experienced throughout life.
There is no subjective feeling, intellectual analysis is throwing the party. I do not understand how there can be any interpretations or associations without intellectual analysis.
To me THIS is simple.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:51 pm

Do you really NEED to see a reflection in the mirror or look at your shadow to know you are here? When you are in bed at night and the lights are out you still know that you are present. Right? It doesn't even take thinking to know that you are here. This knowingness is so very simple and ordinary that any thinking about it only tends to get in the way. Acknowledge this knowingness by simply feeling the FACT of your own presence. Relax and sink deeply into that feeling of just being here. There's no need to rely on thinking about this at all. Simply feel your presence and rest in that. The mistake most people make is in trying to think this through, but the answer doesn't exit in thinking.


I do not actually need to see my reflection to know that I exist. When in bed at night and the lights are out I know that I still exist because my mind it interpreting the signal sent from my body that I feel the pillow under my head and the sheets on my skin. It evaluates these signal against the signals that it has learned over the years to interpret them. Do I have to think about this? No it is an automatic response of the mind that takes place so quickly that it goes un-noticed. To me it's not a knowingness it's just an auto-pilot feature of the mind. How do I acknowledge that without getting further into thinking?

I have never been able to understand how "the answer doesn't exist in thinking". How can you find an "answer" without thinking? Without thinking there is no question so how can there be an answer? How do you understand the question... by thinking, by evaluating these thoughts against past experience and reaching a conclusion.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:58 pm

Other suggestions: tai chi, yoga, holistic massage... Spending time in nature not doing anything, maybe just sitting and connecting with your surroundings



I have tried Tai Chi, yoga and holistic massage. While these were somewhat enjoyable on the physical level then did nothing (for me) on an emotional level.
I was never able to see a connection between these practices and my emotional state.
Spending time in nature. Again this is where I run every morning.
Just sitting and connecting with my surroundings. The non stop barrage of constant thought does not allow for this. I wish it did. This is one of the things that I strive for.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby Onceler » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:21 pm

My recovery took (is taking) years! Despite Tolle's experience, typically change is slow and painful. It sounds as if you have faith, and that's what you need to keep you going. Hang in there, it will happen.

PS, what I am finding is that my life hasn't changed, my disagreement, my argument with life changed. Same life, yet wholly different.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby emcconnell » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:30 pm

My recovery took (is taking) years! Despite Tolle's experience, typically change is slow and painful. It sounds as if you have faith, and that's what you need to keep you going. Hang in there, it will happen.
PS, what I am finding is that my life hasn't changed, my disagreement, my argument with life changed. Same life, yet wholly different.


I have been at this in one way or another for most of my life with therapy and counseling for the better part of 40 years (the mindfulness part for the last 15 years).
I've "hung in there" for a very long time, haven't given up... just increasingly discouraged.

I am not looking to change my life, just my interpretations/reactions to it. That is all I have ever sought. And that is what eludes me.
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Re: Mindfulness... looking for a way out

Postby Onceler » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:40 pm

emcconnell wrote:
My recovery took (is taking) years! Despite Tolle's experience, typically change is slow and painful. It sounds as if you have faith, and that's what you need to keep you going. Hang in there, it will happen.
PS, what I am finding is that my life hasn't changed, my disagreement, my argument with life changed. Same life, yet wholly different.


I have been at this in one way or another for most of my life with therapy and counseling for the better part of 40 years (the mindfulness part for the last 15 years).
I've "hung in there" for a very long time, haven't given up... just increasingly discouraged.

I am not looking to change my life, just my interpretations/reactions to it. That is all I have ever sought. And that is what eludes me.



Same.
Be present, be pleasant.
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