coming home from Belgium

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coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:13 pm

what a relief, found this forum by googling on Eckhart 'Tolle - free will', since i was discussing about that subject on a freethinkers forum...
Didn't make any sense over there, since everything had to be proved scientifically.
Had been quoting Eckhart Tolle al lot with the only result he is seen as the new messiah.
Another topic i started there about the drama in Western Europe since the secularisation and the need for a spiritual dimension turned out the same. 'Proof us there is a spiritual dimension'....
Hopeless these freethinkers. Didn't know where freethinkers stood for, now i know. They are using a materialistic paradigma as their only frame of reference. Once i used the word 'awareness', beyond thinking. 'What is awareness? Proof us there is something beyond thinking'....

Mama mia, so i'm glad to switch forum. Coming home here :-)
I'm from Belgium, living very close to Brussels the capital. My native language is Dutch, my English is moderate.
My age is 53, and i was freethinker without knowing the word till my 27th year on this planet. Then a personal crisis happend - which was being prepared already unconsious for some years before the volcano erupted.
I got divorced, had a son which was only one year and became a miserable spiritual seeker. Being a fanatic sportsmen before, i became sick: very low blood-pressure, almost hyperventilating... nervous breakdown.

Started reading for the first time in my life, following courses, Hypnoses, aura-healing, rebirthing, NLP, Reiki... etc. all things related to inner growth. It continued for 13 years. Being tired of reading and studying, having books to fill a room with, i still didn't find what i was looking for.
Then by coincidence - a medium, who did an channeling for me - suggested me to read the power of now. I was 40 then. Having read enough i had concluded it took me one more year before i bought the book. And.. it was an eyeopener! :-)
So simple, so strong.
Since my divorce i became a DJ, only working once till sometimes twice in the weekends. So i had time enough during the week for reading an studying. And this one book made ik all clear what ik didn't get in 13 years reading other stuff. No waste of time off-cours, might have been a preparation for understanding Tolle, which isn't obvious or even impossible i noticed on the freethinkers forum last month everyday.

That's it by now. Any questions are welcome.
Boni is my name, short for Bonifacius on my identity card (i'm male).
Greetings from Belgium.
Last edited by Boni on Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:56 pm

Welcome to the forum Boni.
Boni wrote:Another topic i started there about the drama in Western Europe since the secularisation and the need for a spiritual dimension turned out the same. 'Proof us there is a spiritual dimension'....
Hopeless these freethinkers. Didn't know where freethinkers stood for, now i know. They are using a materialistic paradigma as their only frame of reference. Once i used the word 'awareness', beyond thinking. 'What is awareness? Proof us there is something beyond thinking'....

Maybe they could consider a forum focused on free feeling in addition to free thinking. Rather than all that narrow focusing on intellectualism of the brain/mind they could actually feel the reality of their own being... nah, it's unlikely that such a strong ego focus as materialism will allow for the feel of life. :D

WW
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:45 pm

Webwanderer wrote:nah, it's unlikely that such a strong ego focus as materialism will allow for the feel of life. :D

They are not only focussed on intellectualism, they have emotions too they said. :roll: :wink:
I have been forum-boxing for one month. Finally i made it a serieus joke. Endless discussing as part of the sport of existence.
pointing tot Karl Renz and quoting this from him:

"how long do i talk about it? Just for fun!...
There is nothing to talk about. If it's not by talking, something will happen.
Why not?
the sport of existence. inspite of not needing it, it has to happen any way, so you have to do your duty anyway, even if there is nothing in for you. That's called meditation. Cause moment from moment there is some action without expectation. There is no intention in it. It's just a total neutral action. And then reaction tot that reaction, reaction tot reaction to reaction.
So what? That will never end
."

I wrote what he said down from this audio recording on youtube:
Karl Renz isn´t it amazing - not the last conversation

Heard once that Eckhart Tolle and Karl Renz had dinner together in India.
Have you heard form Karl Renz before? :-)

PS: the freethinkers forum i came from is located in the Netherlands, but they have a English section too.
See: http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewforum.php?f=70
you have an idea now what i had to deal with...
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:57 pm

Boni wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
nah, it's unlikely that such a strong ego focus as materialism will allow for the feel of life.


They are not only focussed on intellectualism, they have emotions too they said.

Emotion and feel are not the same. 'Feel' it out for yourself. You can feel the texture of a table, you can feel vibration of music, you can feel the beauty in a sunset, you can feel the taste of an orange, you can feel the scent of a rose. You can even feel them in combination. Likewise you can feel the nature of an emotion. E-motion = energy in motion, but not just energy - qualitative energy as emotions vary greatly. One feels emotion, but if there is no clarity on what value is contained in the emotion it is just so much turbulent energy. It will add to experience in life, but maybe not so much to understanding - at least while still living through the human form.

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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby slow ride » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:45 pm

Hi, Newbie Dave interjecting myself if you'll allow...

It feels to me like I really "feel" in my avatar body (and see obvious physical evidence in my avatar body, e.g., increased heart rate) the negative emotions of the ego separation dream --- anger, frustration, fear...

However, it feels to me less like feeling positive flavors of oneness --- peace, joy, security, relief, lovedness --- and more like just "knowing" those positives
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Onceler » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:50 pm

Welcome Boni, I just passed through your beautiful country last week. I stopped in Brugges on the way to Amsterdam. Lovely place.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:15 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Emotion and feel are not the same. 'Feel' it out for yourself...

for me the difference is clear. Not for the average freethinker. I tried to explain them dat emotions are alway's reactions on thoughts and that they were not the thinker of their thoughts.
According to them, i was talking rubbish and very confusing. They are trying to figure who i am, what i believed in, which was very unclear for them since my my signature there is:
- i recognize God because i believe in the limitations of the human intelligence
- Buddhists don't have a god, so they don't spent thoughts on god.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much.

the last sentence in bold i borrowed from the weekly present moment reminders receiving from noreply@eckharttolle.com
:-)
Was i christian, a Buddhist, a hindu? They couldn't label me. Must be some kind of new-ager.
Couldn't grasp wat i was talking about. This moment i was pointing to a space beyond thinking, the other moment i used 'god', another time i mentioned the cosmos which is not judging, only humans! :lol:
I must say, it strengthened me being there daily active for many ours. The first weeks i was under pressure, 10 to 1, all 'attacking' me, interrogating me, and comments like: 'you don't listen to us!' 'Bring in logical arguments for your statements', we don't need guru's, science brings us the truth, we are atheists, you are trapped in illusion, wake up, use your common sense. Christianity is done and you switched to another religion, sect, cult! You are a victim!,

Then gradually i began to see it all like a comic, whatever i said, brought up, quoted from people like the transpersonal psychiatrist Stanislav Grov, Thich Nhat Hanh, Dalai Lama, intelligent Jesuit's ... all rubbish for superstitious people, probably not harmful, but useless anyway...
If somebody here is in for a original active meditation, try a freethinkers-forum! :wink:
If you wonder how i got there, i was looking for the truth, the mystic message in christianity. but it ran out of control, without discovering what i was looking for! :)

Onceler wrote:Welcome Boni, I just passed through your beautiful country last week. I stopped in Brugges on the way to Amsterdam. Lovely place.

thanks, i'm going to Brugges next week. 10 years ago already the last time i've been there. Although Belgium is small.

- If anybody can point my here to a topic, youtube, whatever about the mystical truth in christianity explained the way Eckhart does it. Would be nice to start with.
I know eckhart tolle talks sometimes about what he thinks is meant in the bible with certain quotes. I would like to know more about that.
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby slow ride » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:52 pm

This "intellectualism" is an odd exercise, isn't it?
Plenty of contemplation there, but not much meditation.

Funniest aspect of it may be the ego-stroke the brain gets from reasoning its way to a conclusion. What is funny about that to me is that the truly, truly intelligent and rational intellect will have to conclude that intellect is not achieving joy. That is, the truly intelligent intellect will have to eventually choose against itself, chose against intellect as a path.

Alan Watts has interesting insights on Jesus and his old audio tapes are aplenty at Youtube.
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:19 am

slow ride wrote:This "intellectualism" is an odd exercise, isn't it?

It's so weird...
Once i posted this quote from Ramana Maharsi's (book: I Am that):

'The mind craves for experience, the memory of which it takes for knowledge. The mind craves for formulations and definitions, always eager to squeeze reality into a verbal shape. Of everything it wants an idea, for without ideas the mind is not. Reality is essentially alone, but the mind will not leave it alone — and deals instead with the unreal. And yet it is all the mind can do.

Further more, there is no such state as seeing the real. Who is to see what? You can only be the real — which you are, anyhow. The problem is only mental. Abandon false ideas, that is all. There is no need of true ideas. There aren’t any
.'

laughed away. Go away with your eastern guru's...

slow ride wrote:Alan Watts has interesting insights on Jesus and his old audio tapes are aplenty at Youtube.

Wow, Thanks for your present! Never heard of him.
Found this immediately on wikipedia; exactly what i was trying to explain to the freethinkers. Posted this as a farewell :-):

"Inability to accept the mystic experience is more than an intellectual handicap. Lack of awareness of the basic unity of organism and environment is a serious and dangerous hallucination. For in a civilization equipped with immense technological power, the sense of alienation between man and nature leads to the use of technology in a hostile spirit – to the "conquest" of nature instead of intelligent co-operation with nature." Alan Watts, Psychedelics and Religious Experience , 1968."

Found this and more on youtube: Alan Watts: JESUS CHRIST - Cosmic Consciousness.
thanks again!
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Phil2 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:22 am

Boni wrote: exactly what i was trying to explain to the freethinkers. Posted this as a farewell :-):



Hi Boni,

Welcome to this forum.

I am from Belgium too, from Brussels, French speaking. Also coming from 'free thinking' culture ... and discovered Ramana Maharshi and J. Krishnamurti some 25 years ago, Eckhart Tolle more recently, about 3 years ago ...

From what I can see from your posts here, you still have a grudge with your previous forum ... you are looking for some kind of 'revenge' ... you want to be right and make others wrong ... I don't think you can succeed in this endeavour ... better let them think what they like, who cares ?

As long as you want to 'make your point', to be right, this is ego operating ...

There is a Zen saying: Do you still cherish opinions ?

Ego is made of all kinds of opinions about all things ... and those opinions divide people, you are Christian, I am Muslim, he is American or Communist etc ... all this leading to you know what ... just look around ...

Better stick to facts than opinions ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:30 pm

Phil2 wrote:Hi Boni,
Welcome to this forum.
I am from Belgium too, from Brussels, French speaking.

Thanks for welcoming me as well my compatriot.

Phil2 wrote:
Boni wrote: exactly what i was trying to explain to the freethinkers. Posted this as a farewell :-):

Also coming from 'free thinking' culture ...

then you exactly know too what i've been through! Without knowing i endend up into the lions cage of the intellectual materialists! :lol:
I just read 40 more post there spread over three more pages since i left yesterday.
The subject is 'free will / destiny'. They are comparing humans with robots, how to program a robot and how to program a human for investigating whenever he has a free will or not. They are making it a mathematical subject, where i just asked how it would be if we Western people acted as if we had no free will like hundreds of Millions Indians do in the east.

Phil2 wrote:From what I can see from your posts here, you still have a grudge with your previous forum ... you are looking for some kind of 'revenge' ... you want to be right and make others wrong ...

I know what you mean, but it is not alway's so. The first two weeks of daily discussions it was 1 (me) to 12 freethinkers, then one erstwhile kind of freethinker, named Peter, showed up and to congratulated me for holding that long already! :lol:
In Private message he told me he was a erstwhile christian full with dogma's and guilt feeling, he wanted to get rid of this christian indoctrination and taking part on this freethinkers forum helped him in that proces to freeing himself. But gradually he felt something was missing trying to be a freethinker because they claim everything which is inside comes from outside. That didn't make sense to him. So it happened he came across the course in miracles and he was so happy. Trying to tell something about his discovery on the forum he is blamed to have switched from one illusion to another. :lol: So he shut up on the forum but was reading my post for weeks with a lot of joy and admiration for mij courage. :-)
I really loved his story and felt supported and relaxed.

Phil2 wrote: ... better let them think what they like, who cares ? ... I don't think you can succeed in this endeavor.

Since the appearing of Peter my trying to make my point shifted in making fun, realizing i would never succeed in making clear anything and started acting like a kind of tai-chi master realizing it is al part of a cosmic Joke. LOL!

I must add in my introduction here on the echart Tolle forum i loved the style of Osho Bhaghan very much.
Read about everything from / about him 24 years ago and have been in his Ashram in India too. Several of my best friends are 'followers' of him :-)
So Osho and Karl Renz that i mentioned earlier here are two of a kind.

Phil2 wrote:As long as you want to 'make your point', to be right, this is ego operating ...
... There is a Zen saying: Do you still cherish opinions ?


I know what you mean, but it is not alway's so. Observing Osho and Karl Renz from outside one could say their ego is operating. They keep on going making statements, provoking, discussing, although they know only few or one or even nobody in some circumstances understands them.
But they don't care. For them it's al about, like i wrote earlier: 'the sport of existence. inspite of not needing it, it has to happen any way, so you have to do your duty anyway, even if there is nothing in for you. That's called meditation'.

I know, this kind of mediation is not meant or good for everybody.
For me it was a great ultra dynamic meditation to post and discuss without expectations. :-)
Feeling and observing what happend from time to time in me. Joy, anger, laughter, astonishment, silence...
And kept focussing on my breathing meanwhile, made it wider, whenever i noticed i got narrower. :-)

Phil2 wrote: ... and discovered Ramana Maharshi and J. Krishnamurti some 25 years ago, Eckhart Tolle more recently, about 3 years ago ...

These 3 people are opposites of Osho and Karl Renz, when ik comes to style, temperament.
But they point to the same. That's why i love them too very much.
Although i must say that i find Ramana Maharshi and J. Krishnamurti rather boring while i love to hear and watch Eckhart Tolly. He makes me laugh very often with his visual face-body-language expressions when showing how the ego watches when it's not satisfied for example, or the pain-body reacts. LOL!

Phil2 wrote:Better stick to facts than opinions ...

That's what freethinkers told me all the time when i quoted, Tolle, Krishnamurti, Karl Rens, Osho etc!
'They have only opinions, like the bible, no facts...'
now you tell me this again!
:D
Last edited by Boni on Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby slow ride » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:44 pm

Phil2 & Boni,

Friends, you should both thank the Universal Mind that you're in French-speaking Belgium, rather than France.

Though an American, I lived and worked several years in France. I feel great sympathy for the French as they seem to toil under this impossible cultural identity standard "d'être comme Descartes." The poor French seem chained to intellectual predisposition. Truly, they have my wishes for love.

"The beginning of freedom is the realization that you are not the thinker." -ET

Salut,
Dave
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Phil2 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:48 pm

Boni wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
Boni wrote: exactly what i was trying to explain to the freethinkers. Posted this as a farewell :-):

Also coming from 'free thinking' culture ...

then you exactly know too what i've been through! Without knowing i endend up into the lions cage of the intellectual materialists! :lol:
I just read 40 more post there spread over three more pages since i left yesterday.
The subject is 'free will / destiny'. They are comparing humans with robots, how to program a robot and how to program a human for investigating whenever he has a free will or not. They are making it a mathematical subject, where i just asked how it would be if we Western people acted as if we had no free will like hundreds of Millions Indians do in the east.

Phil2 wrote:From what I can see from your posts here, you still have a grudge with your previous forum ... you are looking for some kind of 'revenge' ... you want to be right and make others wrong ...

I know what you mean, but it is not alway's so. The first two weeks of daily discussions it was 1 (me) to 12 freethinkers, then one erstwhile kind of freethinker, named Peter, showed up and to congratulated me for holding that long already! :lol:



lol ... Reminds me those words from Jesus

"do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:02 pm

Phil2 wrote:lol ... Reminds me those words from Jesus
"do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
:)

Exactly!
Ik realized that, especially since Peter came up. But kept on doing it. Even wrote it! 'Here some more pearls' adding that i was the only one who became happy one more time from polishing the pearls before throwing them. :lol:

- Isn't life fun and easy when we are able to see, experience any action or non action as meditation.
No involvement in horizontal thinking.
Throwing pearls in the ‘now’ being Vertical Time (‘what-is’), and no involvement in horizontal time (‘what-should-be’).
:-)

Or understanding that everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
This will be the subject of my first topic i'll open here after this introduction.

Regards,
Boni
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:38 pm

slow ride wrote:"The beginning of freedom is the realization that you are not the thinker." -ET
Salut,
Dave

And then comes the realization that you are not the body. Nisargadatta Maharaj (NM)
And the realization you have no free will. NM and Ramesh Balsekar.
:D
Last edited by Boni on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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