coming home from Belgium

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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 pm

Boni wrote:And the realization you have no free will.

If not 'you' then who? Does free will exist in any capacity?

WW
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby slow ride » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:32 pm

I have free will.
Tonnes of it.
Just like the prodigal son, I chose this.
Just like the prodigal son, I decide when I will wake up, come to my senses and go home.

I am sure I chose this; I am sure because I chuckle sheepishly when I think on it.

Further, if this had been done to me, I'd be helplessly lost in pissed-off victimization forever (whatever forever means).

Nope. I did this. It's all on me.
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:35 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Boni wrote:And the realization you have no free will.

If not 'you' then who? Does free will exist in any capacity?
WW

i didn't read any topic yet here, was too busy discussing meanwhile on a free thinkers forum about free will and destiny.
Just finished there (for the moment).

I found this topic yesterday viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12109 ) 'Free Will (yet again)'
coincidence by googling on Echkhart tolle - free will.
That's the way i found this topic and am very happy.

Didn't read the topic yet or any other here on the forum about free will.
But i assume the subject free wil or not was discussed in some other free will topic here on the forum?
Or did it never happen?
Seems not when i read you.

slow ride wrote:I have free will.
Tonnes of it.
Just like the prodigal son, I chose this...
... I did this. It's all on me.

So, you wrote the concept: '"The beginning of freedom is the realization that you are not the thinker." -ET'
But the concept 'you are not the doer or your actions and so therefore there is no question of individual free wil' you cannot deal with?

@Webwanderer: same for you?
If so, let me know here.
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby slow ride » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:58 pm

Of course I am the doer of my own actions.
Of course I have free will.
Will power lies with the knower.
Your word, your intent, your creative force all lie with the knower.

Perhaps you mistakenly assume "will" lies with the thinker?
No.
There is no power with the thinker.
The thinker is just a noise box rattling away utterly substanceless.
Kinda like your TV, if you have one (yikes!).

The knower.
That's where the action is.

This crucial difference is where the LoA camp has failed to grok and connect.
They keep trying to think it into manifestation with their thinker.
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:36 pm

Boni wrote:But the concept 'you are not the doer or your actions and so therefore there is no question of individual free wil' you cannot deal with?

@Webwanderer: same for you?
If so, let me know here.


My take is that the ego does not have free will. It is not a living being, but rather a thought construct through which consciousness being, our true self, lives its human adventure. Consciousness being however, does have free will, but is limited in this human exploration by the creative belief structures that make up the egoic perspective. Beliefs are the template that determine the flow of creativity and resulting experience in this physical form. The more one believes in limitation the more one experiences life according to that belief.

As to who is the doer, it would be the one who inherently has the free will to do - even if that one is fully immersed in belief that he or she is the 'me' thought construct, the identification of ego. Embedded within ego is something, an extension of the self, even if that extension is temporarily blinded by beliefs in identifications with imagined limitations. Unconscious beliefs are just as creative as conscious ones. As stated, beliefs are the template for the natural creative flow of life energy.

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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:42 pm

slow ride an web wanderer, let's continue in my first topic i just created.
topic > 'Consciousness AND the now' viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12621&p=113230#p113230
I would suggest you repost / move your posts overthere.

PS @Webwanderer: i am typing to you as ego. Who else can i talk to? You would not respond if there was no ego.
From ego to ego (me - you) :-)
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Phil2 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:50 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Boni wrote:And the realization you have no free will.

If not 'you' then who? Does free will exist in any capacity?

WW


Well, there can be no 'free will' because by definition 'will' comes from an ego, and ego cannot be free ...

But of course there is 'freedom' ... and freedom means that there is no more 'will', no more ego ... when there is total surrender to 'what is', which means no resistance at all to 'what is' (and ego IS resistance).

Now can we 'DO' something ? When there is no thinker, then WHO is the doer ? ... there is no 'doer', all we can 'do' is to 'allow' things to happen, without opposing resistance (ie. no ego interference) ... which means total surrender, total presence ...

... and this is freedom too ...

Reminds me quote from Arnaud Desjardin (a French advaitist teacher):

"Total surrender is total freedom"
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Onceler » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:04 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Boni wrote:But the concept 'you are not the doer or your actions and so therefore there is no question of individual free wil' you cannot deal with?

@Webwanderer: same for you?
If so, let me know here.


My take is that the ego does not have free will. It is not a living being, but rather a thought construct through which consciousness being, our true self, lives its human adventure. Consciousness being however, does have free will, but is limited in this human exploration by the creative belief structures that make up the egoic perspective. Beliefs are the template that determine the flow of creativity and resulting experience in this physical form. The more one believes in limitation the more one experiences life according to that belief.

As to who is the doer, it would be the one who inherently has the free will to do - even if that one is fully immersed in belief that he or she is the 'me' thought construct, the identification of ego. Embedded within ego is something, an extension of the self, even if that extension is temporarily blinded by beliefs in identifications with imagined limitations. Unconscious beliefs are just as creative as conscious ones. As stated, beliefs are the template for the natural creative flow of life energy.

WW


This is brilliant, WW. I would add that it seems that we can work in choice over time. It may take some time to enact a decision, but we can pre-decide and set things in motion that end ultimately with a choice…..I guess that's my version of LOA.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:51 pm

Phil2 wrote:Well, there can be no 'free will' because by definition 'will' comes from an ego, and ego cannot be free ...

I can't say as I agree with your premiss here.

'will'...the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the freedom of the will.

In my perspective ego is simply a thought construct of identification. It is not a conscious being unto itself. The life energy that animates the ego, that has the power to choose, is what created the thought construct through which that life energy interacts with unfolding conditions. That consciousness is of self-aware being and not of mentality and definition.

I do agree that ego cannot be free no more than the lens of camera is free. Ego is a kind of focusing mechanism. It is possible however, for conscious being to become so enamored with the focus that it forgets that it is the focuser and focuses only within what it believes is the limitations of the focused.

Now can we 'DO' something ? When there is no thinker, then WHO is the doer ? ... there is no 'doer', all we can 'do' is to 'allow' things to happen, without opposing resistance (ie. no ego interference) ... which means total surrender, total presence ...

Again, I disagree with the premiss. That said I can see a certain validity to it from the perspective of the ego. 'Total surrender' is a way for self to get free of the grasp of ego identification from the ego's world view - a kind of willingness toward ego death.

"Total surrender is total freedom"

Yes, but freedom of what? And freedom from what? I submit that it is freedom of conscious being from the blinding identification with thought constructs of a separate and limiting self.

The ego is not the doer as it is only an imagining of identity. It is however the template for the doing. But as most have a strong belief in the ego's eye view, the approach of no doer, no you/me, may help break the conscious bond to it.

The downside is stopping there without recognizing/regaining a truer sense of self - one that lives through the belief structures of mind without getting lost in them - one that recognizes the exploratory and experiential potential of the uniqueness of the human adventure. Ego can be a valuable servant, but also a fearful master. In the larger reality however, it is serving a Divine purpose and is celebrated for its service.

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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:54 pm

Onceler wrote: I would add that it seems that we can work in choice over time. It may take some time to enact a decision, but we can pre-decide and set things in motion that end ultimately with a choice…..I guess that's my version of LOA.

Interesting consideration, but I'm not sure I get your full meaning. Can you flesh this out a bit more for me?

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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Phil2 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:02 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
"Total surrender is total freedom"

Yes, but freedom of what? And freedom from what?


Free from the illusion of ego ... free from all the false identities ... free from having to 'do' something ... to become ... to achieve ... free from time also ... and from suffering and fears ...

When the mirage of the oasis in the desert is seen as an illusion, no one runs for water any more ... this is freedom from the illusion ... the seeing of the illusion is the ending of illusion ... the illusion loses its power on you ... and you are now free from the illusion ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby slow ride » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:21 pm

Phil2 wrote:there can be no 'free will' because by definition 'will' comes from an ego...


Disagree.

I place Will, Intent, Word, Creative Power in the domain of the knower.

In the beginning was the Word.

Will existed long before the ego illusion.

The thinker, the avatar earth brain, the ego is a chattering dingbat that swings wildly in an illusory separation dream. Everything the dingbat ego says, thinks, suggests, feels is untrue dingbat nonsense because the only world the ego knows is the completely false imaginary world of separation.
There's no power in that, just dingbat chatter.

The beginning of freedom is the realization that you are not the thinker.
The progression of freedom is realization that everything the thinker ever thought, felt or said over those many seeming earth years was utter nonsense because it was all about an imaginary separation world.
There is only one truth: perfect oneness (ie, no separation)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Phil2 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:04 pm

slow ride wrote:
Phil2 wrote:there can be no 'free will' because by definition 'will' comes from an ego...


Disagree.

I place Will, Intent, Word, Creative Power in the domain of the knower.

In the beginning was the Word.

Will existed long before the ego illusion.



Can there be a will without thought ?

??

... and we are NOT thought ... so to whom does will belong ?

:?:
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Boni » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:31 pm

Phil2 wrote:...
Can there be a will without thought ?
??
... and we are NOT thought ... so to whom does will belong ?
:?:

will belongs to God maybe? :-)

If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
Quote Ramesh Balsekar.

See my first topic: Consciousness AND the now
- If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
- Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.
- Words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn’t very much. (E.T.)
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Re: coming home from Belgium

Postby Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:20 am

Boni wrote:
Phil2 wrote:...
Can there be a will without thought ?
??
... and we are NOT thought ... so to whom does will belong ?
:?:

will belongs to God maybe? :-)

If everything is God’s Will, then there is a ‘total acceptance of what is’.
Quote Ramesh Balsekar.



Then all you have to 'do' is surrender to 'what is' and let God take care of you ... no need for a will ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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