Frank M. Wanderer The Awakening of Consciousness (adventure

[rideforever]

At birth, we are all innocent; we do not have an Ego.

If we are "born" we are not innocent. Because to be "born" is to be separate from God. That is the meaning of the word "born".

In fact there is much to be liberated from. Not just our culture. But also the material world and this universe, and more. Animals for instance also desire liberation although they have no culture.

Equating "the ego" with "all that is bad" is a mistake.

And it leads to many wrong understandings, and much jumping to conclusions, and much declaring of victory when you have barely left the ground.

An ordinary human without the ego would be mad. And in fact for many this is what madness is, the drop the ego ... and there is nothing but madness. Because nothing has been developed within.

For something to develop within that is Real, needs the ego's protection, for the ego creates continuity even through the devastation of unconscious, the ego is able hold something.

Tolle ridicules the ego. Because the ego is negative. So ... he is being just the negative ego in another guise.

That's clear isn't it, actually rather obvious. Just like people who say "I am you" but they don't know what you had for breakfast. Their conclusion is incorrect, you are not me.

We must try harder to understand these things, or we are not worthy.

And we must try to understand what sincerity actually is.

[Sighclone]

Who is it that reads The Power of Now ? It is the ego. The one people are so busy trying to murder, is the very one who is waking up.

The ego does not wake up. Ignore Eckhart Tolle if you like. Read Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi, Osho, Adyshanti, and the Bhagavad Gita instead. Tim Freke comes closest among modern teachers to allow some validity to egoic life (yes, with all its games): in "How Long is Now" he explains the "both/and" paradox of awakening. Certainly there is interest and value in uniqueness. Uniqueness of people, uniqueness of snowflakes, etc. Lila in maya (play in the world of form) can be great fun. "Ego is the deepest dream of the Consciousness." (Frank M. Wanderer) Ego is, however, still a dream.

Andy

[rideforever]

There are many things here.

The ego creates the platform by which Presence can be found.

Presence as we see is 'individual' ... that is why nobody knows what I had for lunch.

For ET ego did not "wake up" ... or progress on its journey. But that is not to say that it cannot. Ego in forming a chain of continuity, in creating a platform of awakening, is an expression of the divine.

For ET ego did not become integrated with "Presence" ... in other words he has followed the ancient teaching of discarding your human self to awaken. That is an old path.

ET still ridicules the ego ... ridiculing is a function of the ego itself. So it is an open question as to how much he has transcended the ego. He has not activated his intelligence to understand his situation or provenance either. Probably because he clings to simplistic ideas. This way of doing things is the old way, the old path.

And on purely a human level there is still a life, a journey. The bodymind has its own journey that has to be respected as another aspect of the divine.

In so many ways, simple ideas of the path ... are superseded as mankind progresses.

[Sighclone]

Clinging to any form of the ego is an absolute, permanent guarantee that awakening will not occur. The "both/and" paradox emerges after the awakening event.

Andy

[rideforever]

In the West the understanding of the path is very shallow and one dimensional ... people live in their heads, and so when they want to be spiritual they are still in their heads and all they talk about is ego.

"Judge the ego, hate the ego, get rid of the ego" ... !!!

I am not sure I heard that word the whole time I was in India ... where the path is understood in a much deeper way.

Ramana moved to live on the mountain which loved him, with his favourite cow Lakshmi who was also on the path.

This kind of love is long gone in the West ... a distant whisper.

[Sighclone]

where the path is understood in a much deeper way.

Please expand on this, with references to texts and/or other, perhaps web-based authorities. It is completely possible that the Indian people are far less constrained by egoic boundaries, given the significant cultural differences. However, the vast majority of viewers and members of this particular forum are from the West. So we are interested mainly in the challenges we face, with our forms of conditioning that surely include egos. A significant percentage of the writings by and about Nisargadatta, Ramesh Balsekar and Ramana Maharshi concern the "sense of self" or ego of the questioner. Both strongly encourage that we transcend that. As did Osho...all Indians.

Andy

[rideforever]

with references to texts and/or other, perhaps web-based authorities.

This is the problem in itself.

This clinging to an "authority" ... is more about being concerned with what people think about you ... "oh look I have the best authority" ... and that is just the ego.

Well ... many people have gone East for precisely these reasons, because it is not something that can be learned by a web-based authority !!!

You have to experience it. That is the way to tell whether it is good.

[Sighclone]

Actually my question concerned the cultural differences between East and West, between India and Hove, giving rise your observation of some kind of "deeper way" of understanding the path, in India. For example, it would have been fairly easy simply to point out the distinction between jnani and bhakti yoga, list some references, etc.

If there is a "deeper way, if there is a "new" path because as you say

This way of doing things is the old way, the old path

....please write the book and demonstrate it in your life.

Many teachers, including the Dalai Lama in "Becoming Enlightened," warn against "being egocentric" (p. 195). You, of course know that many other Indian teachers do the same...you have read them.

Most of your recent posts, in many threads, criticize the awareness of and sensitivity to the "little me," the separate inside egoic self, and the need to transcend it. Bout you elevate the ego. Fine. So, apparently there is "another way," the "new way." Exactly what is it? Is it a "Way that preserves the ego?" Or is it simply a verbal vehicle to separate yourself from the large majority of teachers, both modern and ancient who warn that the fundamental obstacle to awakening is the ego? And so separated, we have rideforever, self-appointed as the only true teacher? Fine, if true. Perhaps you have the new way, the new path to share. If so, please stop finger-waving at me and others here. Just describe the new way and the new path...the path that seems to include the ego. The ego, full of mind and discriminatory function will love this new way...it gets to stay in charge.

rideforever's new way is, obviously, vital to humanity. Why are you not expanding on it more? How does it work? There must be some reason you are keeping it from us. We know you disrespect Eckhart Tolle. Do you also disrespect every individual who enters this forum? How can we not feel snubbed by your withholding this new way? Or is "feeling snubbed" part of the new way? Or is there a new way at all?

Andy

[rideforever]

I am really wondering how I should respond to your nastiness.

Should I say something ... or will it just be used ... one ... more ... time ... as a way for you to say nasty things about me.

You say "you feel snubbed" ... and you demand "citations" ... er ... look I am not in charge of your feelings, you know.

You want to talk about the ego ? ... I don't think you understand the most basic things. The most basic thing. Here :

> Protect people from your negativity
> Take ownership of your feelings - they are your responsibility
> Do not judge others, listen

These are the kinds of things you would learn from a NVC course, perhaps you would find it useful.

[coriolis]

What I'm hearing: