Gangaji versus Sanaya Roman

DavidK
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Post by DavidK » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:43 pm

when you first begin to observe your experience, there is likely a motivation. but when it becomes an unconscious habit, that motivation is just part of the story of your past. the motivation does not need to reincarnate in the now. there can be continuing motivation in the now. but there doesn't have to be.

-dave

p.s the left shift key on my keyboard is broken. i'm not ee cumming's ghost. really i'm not.

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Post by phil » Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:31 pm

DavidK wrote:but when it becomes an unconscious habit, that motivation is just part of the story of your past.
Hmm. Conscious awareness of awareness becomes an unconscious habit? Are we asleep or awake here?

OK, I accept the possibility that there are people who no longer have psychological needs, are not viewing their experience of now through the lens of any kind of interpretation, and thus have no expectations of any kind. Such a person could be said to be entering now for no reason at all, a perspective that allows seeing now objectively, as it is.

But for me, and I suspect most of us here, this is a theory about something outside of our own experience.

I'm not suggesting that each of us is straining in every moment of our now demanding, "Give me peace, give me peace, give me peace!"

I'm just trying to clearly observe Tolle's teachings, our discussion, and my own process, and what I see driving it all is agenda, agenda, agenda. A plan to get from here, to there.

I'm not staring at a map every moment I'm in nature. Often I am just standing in one place observing a tree etc. But I got in my truck, drove to nature, and placed myself in front of the tree, for some reason.

If I can't be clear about my own internal reason, and see it's effect upon my own internal observation, what's the chance of me observing the external tree with any accuracy?

OK, too many words from here. This is an interesting thread, please continue in whatever direction you find most interesting.

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Post by Egoicmidget » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:11 pm

If I can't be clear about my own internal reason, and see it's effect upon my own internal observation, what's the chance of me observing the external tree with any accuracy?
Phil why does there need to be a reason? Internal or otherwise?

Mindstuff might be getting in your way to just being, without the what or why.
Deep intellectual observations might be interesting to verbalize and I think your about as smart as the mind can get but you can go beyond thought to the realm of vast understanding by simply letting it happen.

I see you standing at the door of no agenda, no mind just Phil and nature
a unity and oneness and a realization that this isn't all about mindstuff as you merge into the reality of the everpresent now.

I see you realizing not through your mind but your spirit (the silent observer) that we are all one.

Tolle mentions just allowing the NOW to be as it is.


John

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Clare
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Post by Clare » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:20 pm

Crikey, so many good replies and so little time to reply to them!

First off the bat, I'd say we that 'agenda' has become a dirty word in our new Age society, along with 'Ego'. As soon as someone pulls ( and I am not relating this to this to this thread, just talking in general terms) the agenda card on someone in any spiritual quest, theperson who has been called on it often acts as if they have been caught with their pants down. I would say, just like our heineys (right sp? Red alert: English person using an Americanism) everyone has one, and it's nothing to be ashamed of ;)

I would say every spiritual leader has an agenda. Didn't Jesus when he gathered together his band of merry men (or was that Robin Hood?) and decided to perform miracles to persuade everyone to listen to him about how much better the world would be if we were all nice to eachother have an agenda? Of course he did. Even Buddha decided that he wanted people to know what he had grown to Know after sitting under that tree for all that time. And why did he sit under the tree? What was his agenda? Why, to become enlightened, of course!

Agenda comes from the latin 'Agendum', meaning 'thing to be done'. It can also of course mean, in this context, a particular motive that has an underlying viewpoint or bias. So, I guess it's not so much whether we have agendas, because of course we all do - Even Gaganji, it's where it's coming from - our own personal truth? or The Big T (with fries, please - supersize me).

Are we working on The Divine's agenda? Or our own?

Can we be free of all agendas? No. Why? because this whole frelling planet is the agenda of something. There must be purpose, otherwise, what's it all about - Alfie?

What I like about Sanaya and Orin is they are saying connect your agenda with Divine agenda, and watch the magic happen. We are Co -creators! We are the only creatures on this planet who create art. What does that represent?

Acceptance is a whole other bag of bananas. Resistance pushes things away, so non acceptance will push away things, and it doesn't seem to discriminate . The more we say no, the less comes to us. It's important I feel to accept what Is, but that doesn't mean that it can't change, or that we can't change it. I guess the thing is to play with the posibility of change and not be attached to the outcome. If I take the analogy of being in the rain, and I don't like being in the rain -that's okay. But, if there is a shelter nearby, or a raincoat in my backpack, I may want to use that to change the situation more to my liking. I may even get creative and make a shelter for myself out of somehting nearby. If there isn't any chance of doing these thigns, I accept I am in the rain and accept I don't like it. My next step might be trying to find something good about that experience, even something advantageous about it - which is also changing it for myself. BUT the big mistake comes when I become attached to stopping the rain falling, to reverse the skies, and resist all other suggestions in my attachment to do that.

Okay, out of time. I really like all that has been written here. You people are an education.

Thanks!
Clare

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Post by phil » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:22 pm

Every so often I read something on the board that makes me laugh out loud. Here's one!
Clare wrote:There must be purpose, otherwise, what's it all about - Alfie?
I am simply amazed I'm old enough to get this reference! :-) You brits are a riot...

Good points John, not ignoring them, will reply, after a space others can fill.

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Post by Clare » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:54 am

JedEye wrote:I think when there is no resistance in You, the energy flows through you and your life in a perfect way that you would never think of. And it manipulates you so you change all the time, and after some time when you look back you see how you have changed and it is so huge that the mind with it`s ideas can only stay suprised. I mean the flow of life is much bigger when it is natural and not changed by the mind.
I guess real question is - will I lose something, joy of life or things that I want if I surrender to life?
Giving up hope as I see it is not waiting for the future to be better, so you can already enjoy. :D
Hi Jed,

I love this post. It sounds like perfect wisdom - and probably is, but if I try to relate to it on a practical level it loses me. So, help me out a little if you will.

OKay, so I have no resistance, that's cool, and energy is flowing through me in a perfect way. First question: how can I be sure of this? Unless I am perfect (which I am certainly not) how can energy be flowing through me in a perfect way? Sure if I was completely egoless and fully enlightened, this may be so. But as a woman who is basically good and consciously working with Spirit but not quite ascended yet,I still have snares and snags in my energy system. I still have a few swamps. So how do I know that energy is flowing through me in a perfect way?

Okay, so let me take it that instead, however energy is flowing through me, I offer no resistance and let it happen. And it manipulates me so I change all the time - right? Jed, you have just spoken my life for the past twenty years. I have been like a piece of flotsam pushed and pulled by the tide of life. I reckon I must have had some previous life as a Zen Monk or Catholic Nun or something because I have always thoguht I had no say in how life moved me, and never expected much of anything. I was born with tremendous ambition, that conflicted directly with a feeling of trying to make things happen in my life was W.R.O.N.G.

And you know what? Nothing happened. Oh sure, life happend to me. I developed. I grew. I became more all-seeing. My soul grew, I beleive. But my three dimensional life never resembled anything I had envisioned it would. And if it had resembled so much more, as you claim it would, that would have been fine. But I hav found I have been so gone on the 'don't hope' thing, it truly is nothing I could have ever hoped for.

Suffice to say, I am reviewing the situation (cue Fagin)

As soon as I consciously gave myself permission to work with energy in my life, things started changing. Up until this point, I have never really given myself permission. I havea lways been so Goddamn 'Thy will be done'. But I get the sense that what wants needs to be done, needs to be done by me.

Will I lose something if I surrender to life? Well, Gangaji claims you could lose any and all of the things you mentioned above, but searching or holding these things as valuable is futile, ego driven illusion. I think Gangaji comes from a long line of teachers who learned what they know in countries where hardship, suffering and destruction were at such a fever pitch the only thing to do was to spiritualise that experience. That is how best to get benefit from hardship. But if we are as a world to move on from hardship and suffering and destruction, I feel we have to see our place in the world as three dimensional beings with the ability to ring changes. That allowing energy to flow through us and allowing it to suggest to us the best way to Be is also active, not a passive experience of just resigning all, and giving up all hope, all agenda.

Sometimes things are true just because of the time or the place. I don't feel this day and age is the time or the place for this kind of teaching now. Beautiful as it is.

Clare

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Post by Clare » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:12 am

phil wrote:
I am simply amazed I'm old enough to get this reference! :-) You brits are a riot...
Hey! Watch it, old man. I'm only just forty so what would be my excuse for 'getting it' ? :)

I'll pass it off as happening to like Michael Caine films.

Oh and talking of films and books - David! I took a look through that book I quoted from By Clive barker. Jeez, I have come a long way since the twenty something that read it. Whilst I still think it's a fine fantasy novel, I remember being totally blown away by the philosophy behind it, and now, I am sitting there thinking (ha!) 'Didn't he consider ---(whatever)?' and 'Why is he so mind orientated? It's not the mind that drives these things he's talking about!'

So - yeah , great read, but not quite as in synch with the teachings I linked it up with.

And yeah. I loved Imagica. Rich sweeping cornucopia of flawed genius - that's how I remember it ;)

Clare

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Post by phil » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:58 am

Clare wrote:Hey! Watch it, old man. I'm only just forty so what would be my excuse for 'getting it' ? :)
A thoroughly young woman like yourself has exquisite taste, which brings you in to contact with seasoned genteel gentlemen well versed in such sophisticated cultural topics? :-)
Clare wrote:I would say everyone has an agenda, and it's nothing to be ashamed of (slightly edited quote)
Agreed, agreed. Nothing at all wrong with a positive change agenda, thus no reason to pretend it's something else. A change agenda just isn't acceptance of what is, that's all.
Can we be free of all agendas? No.
Very reasonable theory, but let's not close the book on it? Does the possibility merit discussion?
Phil why does there need to be a reason? Internal or otherwise?
Good question John. I don't know the answer. Let's explore it? I'm not saying there has to be a reason why we go to now, I'm just observing that in everyone I've met there appears to be a reason, a motivation, an agenda.

There it is, now. The goal, the agenda, the dream. We could look at it if we wished.

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Post by JedEye » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:01 am

I didn`t mean anything connected with energy system. It doesn`t matter.

How can you be sure that something is good? It is the only thing that exists right there, so all other are mind stuff.

If you already know from experience, why the questions? :D
no more words

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Post by phil » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:25 am

Egoicmidget wrote:Mindstuff might be getting in your way to just being, without the what or why.
Hi John, it seemed my reply should be filed in another thread, here:
viewtopic.php?p=2631#2631

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Post by Clare » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:39 am

JedEye wrote: If you already know from experience, why the questions? :D
Because it's only my experience, Jed. I am also interested in your experience. Perhaps your experience can inform or enlighten mine.
phil wrote: Agreed, agreed. Nothing at all wrong with a positive change agenda, thus no reason to pretend it's something else. A change agenda just isn't acceptance of what is, that's all.
I'd go back to the caught in the rain analogy. You can change your experience of being caught in the rain, but that doesn't stop you accepting you are caught in it. Railing against the skies howling, "It's not fair! Stop it!" would be non-acceptance of what is :)
clare wrote: Can we be free of all agendas? No.
phil wrote: Very reasonable theory, but let's not close the book on it? Does the possibility merit discussion?
Phil, I can barely keep a straight face when typing this - if we had no agendas, what would be the point?
:shock: :) :wink:

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Post by phil » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:35 pm

Clare wrote:Railing against the skies howling, "It's not fair! Stop it!" would be non-acceptance of what is :)
Right. Resisting the rain, or my reaction to it, non-acceptance. Ego, thought, emotions etc, natural forces of nature, just like the rain.
clare wrote:Phil, I can barely keep a straight face when typing this - if we had no agendas, what would be the point?
Well Sister Clare, let's consult the scriptures for an answer to your question. Before Reverand Phildog takes this too seriously and begins a sermon, we'll turn now to page 34 of our hymnal. Sister Dionne will lead us in song.

http://tanny.com/tolle/alfie.m4p

What's it all about, Alfie?
Is it just for the moment we live?
What's it all about when you sort it out, Alfie?
Are we meant to take more than we give
or are we meant to be kind?
And if only fools are kind, Alfie,
then I guess it's wise to be cruel.
And if life belongs only to the strong, Alfie,
what will you lend on an old golden rule?
As sure as I believe there's a heaven above, Alfie,
I know there's something much more,
something even non-believers can believe in.
I believe in love, Alfie.
Without true love we just exist, Alfie.
Until you find the love you've missed you're nothing, Alfie.
When you walk let your heart lead the way
and you'll find love any day, Alfie, Alfie.


POSTSCRIPT: Guru Kathynanda informs me I am old enough to know about the original movie, but too old to know about the the recent remake of this movie. So you see, knowing, and nothingness, can exist within the same form. :-)

PPS: I know Clare's mention of Alfie was an off the cuff reference. But wow, upon listening to this song again, it's amazing how well it fits here, eh?
Last edited by phil on Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by pilgrim » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:25 pm

this is a fascinating debate that has opened up here

As I was reading everyone's posts I felt myself coming very close to that excruciating edge which is where I find the interface between my agenda and Truth/ Freedom /God or whatever the reason is that pulls us on to this path is called.

For me the Engineer/Scientist or agenda /motivation question brings me to a place where my intellect begins to panic or get bored basically because it can't quite compute the issue. It seems as if the fact is I have to become comfortable with living in total uncertainty and frequent paradox , for example : I want to know but as the tao te ching says , the tao which can be spoken is not the true tao. And in any case as soon as I act, the context changes! so what is true?????

As humans we HAVE to understand and I need to know what's true but also I also very simply want to end my suffering so if it works (whatever it is ) I'm all for it! So my agenda is I want EVERYTHING.

What I have found is that the deeper I go into these questions the more serious I get and the less satisfied I am with a lot of answers to be found in the "market place" . But I keep looking-- I have never stopped and I don't think I ever will....

love
pilgrim

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Post by JedEye » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:42 pm

Not knowing is much more certain that knowing through any thought. When I allow not knowing, there is space. Conciousness is more free, less limited. I feel smaller and bigger at the same time. I think it is the biggest truth, I`m too scared to really go deep into that.
no more words

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Post by Clare » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:56 pm

Wow, Pilgrim, I think you have condensed for me perfectly here the nature of the debate within myself (I wasn't aware I was having one with anyone else. If it sounded that way, I do apologise) It takes a lot of vision to say what you have said in that way. I really appreciate you posting this. It has helped me.

And Phil, how I loved that hymn. So that's what it's all about, eh? (that and of course the revelations in the one on page 38, entitled The Hokey Pokey )

Actually it DID make me have an epiphany of sorts. Do you mean that the answer is ......Love??

That there's nothing you can do that can't be done? Nothing you can sing that can't be sung? Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game?

It's easy?

Nothing you can make that can't be made? No one you can save that can't be saved? Nothing you can do but you can learn how to Be in time?

It's easy?
All you need is ......Love?

HURRUMPH! There was I thinking I had to decipher gangaji and reconcile it with Sanaya via Eckhart. And all I needed was... Love? (and Lennon and McCartney)

But I've got LOADS of that!

Wow. I feel like The Wizard of Oz just told me all I have to do is click my heels together and say...
:lol: 8)

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