Gangaji versus Sanaya Roman

phil
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Contact:

Post by phil » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:44 am

Nice post pilgrim.
pilgrim wrote:It seems as if the fact is I have to become comfortable with living in total uncertainty
This seems a good start on releasing all agenda.

Where does agenda come from? Needs and interpretations?

Let's start with interpretations, that's easier. There is our actual experience of now. And then there is everything we think about that experience, or our interpretations.

As Tolle mentioned, ALL of our experience of everything happens inside our heads, so we don't even KNOW for sure there is even anything beyond our own minds. How do we build authoritative explanations on that?

Your dog is very enthusiastic, willing and intelligent in his own way. But you couldn't teach him algebra in a thousand years. He simply doesn't have the required equipment. I suspect that's where we are in regards to "the truth" and all these big picture subjects we build our interpretations around.

Then someone will say, "Ah, this is just thought. The knowing lies beyond thought." This too is just one more interpretation, most likely memorized out of a book written by someone we've never met, who got the theory from someone they'd never met, who got the theory... etc.

So, when it comes to this forum, what's it all about? Besides Alfie, of course!

1) Friends. Comradeship. Communion.

2) Fun. Part of our brain wants to dance, so let's dance.

3) Poke, prod, and pummel all of our interpretations, and those we've borrowed from others, until none our interpretations no longer have much weight.

If we can succeed in that, we've weakened or maybe even removed one obstacle to a clear observation of now.

We're no longer entering now expecting it to look like this or that, according to somebody or another.

Having the courage to live in uncertainty, releasing part of the agenda, going deeper in to now?

PS: Did you find this post very convincing? Do you feel better now that you understand what's going on? Don't worry, you can't count on any of this either.

User avatar
Clare
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:20 pm
Location: Limousin, France
Contact:

Post by Clare » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:02 am

phil wrote:As Tolle mentioned, ALL of our experience of everything happens inside our heads, so we don't even KNOW for sure there is even anything beyond our own minds. How do we build authoritative explanations on that?

Your dog is very enthusiastic, willing and intelligent in his own way. But you couldn't teach him algebra in a thousand years. He simply doesn't have the required equipment. I suspect that's where we are in regards to "the truth" and all these big picture subjects we build our interpretations around.
I think (ha!) you've really hit on something here, Phil. And I also think that once you cross into this territory the next Bugaboo is faith. Because my interpretation of what you are saying is that we can't be certain of anything, and we want to be certain.

One thing: my very smart dog cannot do algebra, it's true; nor does she have any inkling that it is there to learn - math is nothing to her (although I do indulgently like to think she knows how to bark the number of treats she wants at any given time). But no. What my dog wants to do is be a dog. Human beings always want to reach beyond that which is immediately apparent: they are always saying, "What's it all about, Alfie?" It's made us build empires and reach for the stars. It's made us invent math as we understand it and religion as we understand it. It's ultimately made us spiritual beings. As you say so often, the desire to be enlightened is also placing an investment on something, and being invested in an outcome - so, it's also an agenda.

It goes around in a circle like some maddening Zen koan because the reach for higher levels of consciousness has often brought back the solution is to just be how my dog is. Just Be.

But we know about algebra.

So the question is, if the Big T with fries is too supersize for our little consciousness, then why do we have a hunger for it? Why is it in our being to seek it out?

Unless we want to go from faith to atheism and say that it's all in our heads, all of it; we live, we die and anything else is made up to comfort us that we are not so alone in the universe. Or go from faith to Nihilism and say that there is nothing but nothing - which actually brings us back to Zen, just with a more hardcore spin on it.

Despite the jocular tone of my last post, I really do think that is the epiphany for me. Love is the answer - and you know that for sure. :wink:
phil wrote: So, when it comes to this forum, what's it all about? Besides Alfie, of course!
I think it's meant to be about Eckhart Tolle and his teachings. But I reckon it's about love - which of course incorporates his teachings. :)

Love to all! 8)
Clare

phil
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Contact:

Post by phil » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:13 pm

We'll have fun, fun, fun til Daddy takes the T-bird awaaaaay....
Clare wrote: And I also think that once you cross into this territory the next Bugaboo is faith.
Yes, yes, we're traveling together. Faith fits right in here. Faith is about surrendering the idea we can figure it out. Faith is about surrendering the idea we can somehow obtain faith. It happens _to_ you, or it doesn't, and who knows why. Faith in what? Faith, like being in love, without having a clue who you are in love with.
Clare wrote: So the question is, if the Big T with fries is too supersize for our little consciousness, then why do we have a hunger for it?

A child can ask, "Why is the sky blue?" without having even the vaguest possibility of coming to an answer. How do we answer your question except to say, "We don't know."

The question asking process is wonderful in itself, and doesn't really require answers to be worthwhile. Look at this forum. We'll go round and round for years, and never really arrive at a destination. But taking the trip together is fun, eh? Bunch of kids, on a merry-go-round, hollering their heads off.

What's the state of mind that asks a question without requiring an answer? Sounds kind of like observing the now, eh?

And what a shame it would be if "the truth" was small enough to fit inside our minds. Imagine how disappointed we would be if we did finally get all the answers we are demanding?

Look what happened to our relationship with nature as we gained a measure of control over it. For American Indians nature was alive, for us it is a bunch of a dead stuff.

Maybe the mystery is more useful than an answer would be?
Clare wrote:I think it's meant to be about Eckhart Tolle and his teachings.
"...but not limited to him." :-) Which is cool.

It might be interesting to put Tolle's teachings in to two piles.

One pile contains pointers to the experience itself. Tolle says,
"Let's focus on what's happening right now, and see what happens."

The other pile contains everything Tolle says about the experience, what it means, how it compares to something else etc.

be-lank
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:50 pm

Post by be-lank » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:47 pm

"Seek but do not find."

Sayth the ego.

It is one of its big creeds.

It is one of its big defenses.


"Keep digging- there is treasure there."

This rings True.

This is True.

User avatar
Clare
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:20 pm
Location: Limousin, France
Contact:

Post by Clare » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:30 pm

phil wrote:We'll have fun, fun, fun til Daddy takes the T-bird awaaaaay....
Yayyy!
phil wrote: A child can ask, "Why is the sky blue?" without having even the vaguest possibility of coming to an answer.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/sky_blue.html

Proving that for all questions we have answers for, there is always Google.

When I find The Big T, I'll be sure to make sure it is logged with several search engines.

Watch this space... :lol:

Edit: OOOh Hold on! I FOUND it! The clues were in the music references. It seems The Big T is definitely something to do with having a party.

http://www.bigt-music.com/

phil
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Contact:

Post by phil » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:29 pm

Clare wrote:It seems The Big T is definitely something to do with having a party.
Ah OK, listen up everybody. Clare found it! The Big T is at the Bada-Bing! Wait a minute, isn't that Tony Soprano's strip club? Ha, yea, let's have our next Tolle retreat there. Think of the polarities dude!
Seek but do not find. Sayth the ego. It is one of its big defenses.
Good point there you, whatever your name is.

On one hand we hide in endless seeking. On the other hand, we hide in the finding too, when we wrap some interpretation or another around us like a cozy blanket and hang on to it for dear life.

be-lank
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:50 pm

Post by be-lank » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:47 pm

Often what we write is meant for our very own eyes.
It's astounding. We are our own teachers!
"On one hand we hide in endless seeking. On the other hand, we hide in the finding too, when we wrap some interpretation or another around us like a cozy blanket and hang on to it for dear life."

Pupil,
Phil

User avatar
spatialbean
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Post by spatialbean » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:43 pm

:D Bingo Lisa! :D

phil
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Contact:

Post by phil » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:48 pm

OK, somebody spell it out for Professor Dunderbrain. Sorry, some pupils need bulk wordage to get the point. Burp it up girls, I'm listening. :-)

be-lank
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:50 pm

Post by be-lank » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:48 am

Meet ya all in "The Sky is the Limit"!

Phil- "We salute you!"

phil
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Contact:

Post by phil » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:17 pm

OK, a few of us have taken a quick side trip to blanket land.

We determined that the process of chewing on interpretations can be an obstacle to now. We've left the question of whether the interpretations themselves can be obstacles to now for another day.

Returning now to chewing on Clare's question...
Clare wrote:what does anyone think about releasing all agenda versus positive manipulation of energy?
"Releasing all agenda" seems to imply letting go of signposts, methods and interpretations. And somehow preventing our needs from infecting our now experience with new agendas. Sounds like a pure form of "accepting what is", and sounds pretty darn difficult.

"Positive manipulation of energy" sounds more like embracing methods, developed from interpretations or trial and error, and applying them to our needs. In this case it seems we can use the now experience as a means to an end, taking us from confusion to peace. Not as glamorous, not very tidy in the theory department, but much more accessible?

Not arguing for or against either, just wondering if the thread still has life.

User avatar
heidi
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2703
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:37 am
Location: 42nd parallel, Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by heidi » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:29 pm

what does anyone think about releasing all agenda versus positive manipulation of energy?
Queen of manifestation, here. Yes, I have agendas, and I take action to bring manifestation about. The trick, though, is to have no expectation of outcome and to patiently allow the universe to bring things about on its own schedule. Think of an athlete who is about to run a race. There's a lot of training and then there's visualization, and then you let go and become totally present within it, often getting surprises. Acceptance, such as knowing that everything is as it should be, allows one to have an agenda and still be accepting of whatever the outcome is.

As we all know, hindsight is 20/20, and when I look back on some times when things sucked, I now know that things had to be the way they were in order for things to be the way they are. :D

So, I am finishing up my book, visualizing it already done and published, and this too will manifest in its own time. But, if I don't take action, then it can't happen.
Heidi
http://www.heidimayo.com
wonderment on the third wave

phil
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:39 am
Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Contact:

Post by phil » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:35 am

Thanks Heidi. I've read your post a number of times, and will keep reading if you have more to offer.

I'm stuck on reconciling "agenda" and "no expectation of outcome".

Hmm. Does it help to separate agenda, from attachment to agenda?

I can see how a runner might train hard, and enter the race, lose, and not care one way or another. A real runner runs to run, not to win?

Translated to a spiritual context, I can imagine one could have an agenda of transformation, and if nothing happens just laugh and say oh well. So there's an agenda, but the agenda has not been given much power. Thus it doesn't obscure an observation of now too much. Perhaps a real philosopher asks to be asking, not for the answer?

Hmm. For the moment, watering down the agenda is the best I can do to harmonize it with no expectations.

Just wondering aloud, exploring, trying to find my way in to your perspective. Still listening.

User avatar
Clare
Posts: 230
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:20 pm
Location: Limousin, France
Contact:

Post by Clare » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:08 am

phil wrote:Translated to a spiritual context, I can imagine one could have an agenda of transformation, and if nothing happens just laugh and say oh well. So there's an agenda, but the agenda has not been given much power.
If we have an agenda and we apply energy to it, and take action, things will happen. As far as I can see, that's the law. What I get from what you are saying, Heidi is that we are never sure exactly what will happen, and we should be constantly working with it as it changes and grows.

I think we can empower our vision by working on aligning our agenda with The Agenda - with Divine will, or whatever; however, we often may have something of the picture, but can't see it full panorama. I feel having attachment to outcome would mean holding onto the little picture I have, and not allowing anything to suggest to me a bigger one. Having agenda without attachment would mean stepping into my power as a creator on this planet, and painting the vision I see, yet still allowing the bigger hand to hone it, to add flourishes, or even to wipe the slate clean and just keep the outline if that's what is necessary.

To contradict myself, it seems people who are most effective in this world are those who hold onto their vision, and no matter what changes in their immediate crcumstances they are never swayed from their vision. They just deal with whatever comes along, and keep faith. Every successful and influential person has done this, from Ghandi to Lance Armstrong.

We are back to faith again.

Time for a hymn?

Before we go to page 19, 'Faith' by George Michael, before we all break into rapturous voice about wantin' to touch yer baaady - before this river becomes an ocean, and before you thrrrow my heart back on the floor!

Please reconsider this foolish notion.....

Could the Big T be that all the teachings telling us to release all and give up all agenda are just distracting from the fact that we do have the potential to control absolutely everything that happens - Good or bad.

Reality (or God) give Ghandi a country full of war. Reality (or God) gave Lance a body full of cancer. They just simply decided that they would change that. And NOTHING would dissuade them.

Ya gotta have faith...... :lol:

DavidK
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:29 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Contact:

Post by DavidK » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:06 pm

Clare wrote:Every successful and influential person has done this, from Ghandi to Lance Armstrong.
Does anybody else think Lance has an ironic last name?

-Dave

p.s. Been to busy to contribute much. But I'm happily lurking and enjoying everyone's posts. :D

Post Reply