Enlightenment and Straight jackets

I just love Adya and I think he deserves his own forum.

Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby ZenOfchaos » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:16 am

Was listening to a talk by Adya and as usual was enjoying it, feeling good...then boom! He said something that threw me and brought up a lot of fear.

He said something along the lines of "Self inquiry is dangerous. I've seen people carried off in straight jackets."

I'm in the midst of self-inquiry and had actualy had a very productive day of 'looking'. But then heard this and it threw me off and now i'm a bit scared to look. As someone who has experienced a lot of fear, especially prolonged intense fear, it's hit a nerve.

Anyone have any input on this? Is adya exagerating? Talking about extreme example? why would it affect someone that bad??
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby kiki » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:02 am

When faced with the final letting go of egoic identity the ego sometimes reacts with a kind of horror that it won't be around anymore and then retreats back into itself. This is what happened to me about 12 years before I came across Tolle in 2000. Once I gained some direct insight into my true nature (thanks to Tolle) I didn't have any problem going on with my life after seeing the "illusion of me".

On the other hand, sometimes when people have seen through the "illusion of me" in a very sudden way without being prepared for it and they are faced with the knowledge that "nobody is home" fear arises; their world is different because "they" aren't in it and that is scary for them because they don't know how to live in the world without a personal perspective. In extreme cases, if they can't integrate the awakened life into their ordinary day to day existence they may end up very confused and unsettled. These are the people Adya is hinting at; they may need some kind of counseling from a trained professional who is well versed in these teachings, someone who understands the dynamics of awakening because they themselves are awake. If the counselors aren't knowledgable about awaking then they may misdiagnose someone and won't be able to effectively help them.
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby ZenOfchaos » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:25 am

wow that sounds scary

the mind creates fear

surely seeing through the illusion essentially is seeing through the mind and through fear

someone not being able to take in the awakened state therefore must be still stuck in it??! They're not really free then.

if that's the case then it is not so much a type of person that this reaction will happen to but rather how that person sees things
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby kiki » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:51 am

Awakening isn't really for people who are simply curious about it and then embark on a journey of awakening. It takes courage and commitment to look honestly and see what's real and what isn't and then "keep going", come hell or high water. I doubt most people are ready for it.

Fear is the greatest obstacle, so courage and commitment will benefit those who won't settle for anything less than knowing and abiding in their true nature. These are the people who have found their old world lacking an undefinable "something" that they can't put their finger on and that only awakening will satisfy. Their courage and commitment will keep them going because they know that nothing else seems fulfilling.
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:22 am

re Adya: He said something along the lines of "Self inquiry is dangerous. I've seen people carried off in straight jackets."


I laughed when I read this... it's all perspective remember.

if that's the case then it is not so much a type of person that this reaction will happen to but rather how that person sees things


People rarely put straight jacket on themself :wink: I think depending on the society and cultural influence and understanding around one .. for instance if you were in India one might be celebrated for initiating self inquiry, in indigenous societies kind of 'no big deal' it happens to us all, on the floor of the NY stock exchange.. yeah, they'd think you're nuts. :wink:

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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby Onceler » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:33 am

If you catch on fire what will be burned and what will be left? Will the flames be acrid or sweet? What could Adya possibly know that you don't? You might be laughing.....

Fear is the mind killer.....or was it beer?
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby ZenOfchaos » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:42 pm

kiki wrote:Awakening isn't really for people who are simply curious about it and then embark on a journey of awakening. It takes courage and commitment to look honestly and see what's real and what isn't and then "keep going", come hell or high water. I doubt most people are ready for it.


I don't buy this at all. People awaken without ever haven 'sought'. People can also be very committed to awakening, be prepared to "keep going", yet turn away if it becomes too much or just not happening. I'm sure some who are not 'ready for it' will get it and some who are 'ready for it' won't get it. I doubt the curious ones ever get to real honest looking.

Fear is the greatest obstacle, so courage and commitment will benefit those who won't settle for anything less than knowing and abiding in their true nature. These are the people who have found their old world lacking an undefinable "something" that they can't put their finger on and that only awakening will satisfy. Their courage and commitment will keep them going because they know that nothing else seems fulfilling.


perhaps. but perhaps that fear can get too much no?
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby ZenOfchaos » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:44 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
re Adya: He said something along the lines of "Self inquiry is dangerous. I've seen people carried off in straight jackets."


I laughed when I read this... it's all perspective remember.


what do you mean?

People rarely put straight jacket on themself :wink: I think depending on the society and cultural influence and understanding around one .. for instance if you were in India one might be celebrated for initiating self inquiry, in indigenous societies kind of 'no big deal' it happens to us all, on the floor of the NY stock exchange.. yeah, they'd think you're nuts. :wink:

Breathe out!!!


i see what you are saying but i took the 'straight jacket' thing more of a psychotic or nervous breakdown rather than via the perception of the local health board :?
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:22 am

Our own perceptions... whether we view a thing in fear or in love, are the most influencing, and yes environmental and cultural paragdigms are important. If you've been raised in an atmosphere of fear it may be the 'first choice' of your physical processing of stimuli (see the Being Human thread as to how we process stimuli physically and what the brain does in interpreting things).

As you mentioned you've experienced a lot of fear ... when you've realised the fear - false emotions appearing real - has not been warranted - what then?

Ultimately self enquiry 'proves' that fears are unnecessary, judgement is unnecessary and the cause of our suffering is our perspective. This throws off the fears of the mind and allows one to realise that no matter what happens, it's all okay.
So instead of doing the fear-relief dance, one does the 'meet what is' dance.

For someone to have a nervous breakdown they would have to still be overloading their system with fear, so that's not really self enquiry is it, it would be self delusion.

eg; I am at this moment watching people being evacuated in the middle of the night ahead of a huge flood.
One lady just said "It wasn't frightening, you didn't have time to think about it, so we just did what we had to do'.
That ^ is clarity - others are panicking in their thoughts about 'what might...', or 'what if we don't cope... etc'

In presence there is nothing to fear. So if self enquiry is creating suffering it is unhelpful - but it's also likely not REAL, not now, not presence.

Self enquiry in presence is not filtered in fear, its filtered in love - a balance of gratitude and generosity - no matter the experience, no matter the self enquiry - its generous, its grateful for whatever opportunity arises to BE.

Make sense?
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby ZenOfchaos » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:38 am

I get what you are saying thanks

what I had in mind though was that point during self-inquiry when the ego/self is faced with its own death. realising there is no you. Its that natural defence mechanism, fear.

Maybe that fear is too much for some?

(also I hope your place isn't being flooded!)
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:03 am

If that fear is too much for some they won't push through it - the ego will 'save itself'.

The thing is though, once 'known' you can't really ignore it any more, it rings hollow. And, for my perspective the (for want of a better word) natural ego in its rightful place, highlighting elements of Danger, is absolutely appreciated, its in balance and harmony in this moment - in presence. Its a disorted ego, and distorted fears that cause unnecessary suffering.

Reality doesn't see experiences as 'suffering'. It just is what it is.

(Thanks for your thoughts, I'm high and dry, the 'mud army' will be activated again after high tides tonight and tomorrow night will break major river banks, we're getting used to the extremes of nature. I actually prefer the floods to the bushfires, and am grateful that this extreme soaking will damp down the huge fuel loads we have. Albeit, they will feed new growth... life just marches on :| )
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby ZenOfchaos » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:50 am

Thanks for the answer Jen and glad you are not you ;)

Maybe the fear is too much at the moment. Fear has been conditioned in this brain for a long long time and physically/emotionally it provokes a grossly exaggerated reaction at present.

I hear what you say about once seeing some truth you can't unknow it. When its intense I can be like "plug me back into the matrix!"

I fear awakening for this brain will involve a violent awakening :(

But then I don't know if that's true and could be egos manipulation

Maybe self-inquiry and valium is the way forward :lol:
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:22 pm

Dearest Zen,

Fear has been conditioned in this brain for a long long time and physically/emotionally it provokes a grossly exaggerated reaction at present.

I fear awakening for this brain will involve a violent awakening


If this is what you've become accustomed to, (false emotions appearing real and being played out) wrapping fear around you like a warm, woolly, comfortable jumper, then the draughty freedom from it will feel a little strange. You will feel 'exposed', your sense receptors will be bursting with stimuli recognition and awareness.

Please do read the second entry in this post... are you aware of how amazing our physical capacity is? viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10594

In acceptance of this unfamiliar feeling curiousity might be a helpful companion.

Curiousity doesn't say I know what this is, curiousity says 'oh, ... this is different, let me feel how this feels'
Different is not wrong, or scary, it's just different.

Rather than stupefying your fears why not try looking at them with curiousity...
think of some of the base fears you've led your life by, I can't know what they are, what you've been taught about life although I'd hazard a guess they all boil down to either
- If.... I might die
- If.... someone might not love me
- If.... I might lose something I think is mine to hold on to
The answer is yes! And that's okay too!!

The answer is okay because -
I am eternal awareness
I am love
I hold no thing material and experience no thing physical that will not end.

I am here experiencing the individuation of elements of experience - I can experience hot and cold, wet and dry, happy and sad, abundance and lack.... and still I am eternal love.

When its intense I can be like "plug me back into the matrix!"

Absolutely!! and within the 'matrix' - this opportunity to experience width and height and depth and singular moments and individuation of stimuli is a truly incredible opportunity.

I know it was said lightly in jest, but Valium is a signifier of turning life down, of saying no to experiencing the fullness of life, rather than yes. We are naturally given that 'break' in our wake-sleep design. To walk around asleep in our senses is so sad to me.

No choice is wrong, it truly does just bring a different experience, societies that 'turn down' the feelings and experiencing of their populations do so not to serve the population, but its own false power base, keeping them in fear of truly living life, keeping them in fear, telling them they don't have the capacity, that they are somehow 'broken', it's not true, but it is easy to believe inside that warm, woolly jumper.


May I suggest instead... a dose of sunrises, sunsets and smiles? No matter what is happening in the world, the sun rises, the sun sets and smiles and frowns come and go too.

Don't look for awareness, don't look for love, don't look for peace
Look AS awareness, look AS love, look AS peace
- in everything your gaze falls upon see it through the eyes of eternal love, knowing that this too is perfect, this too will pass, this too is energy in motion dancing to the music of life.

There is no thing to fear here.
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby SandyJoy » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 am

Ok, I know nothing about Adya, so my reply here is not based on anything he says.

But, I have seen a lot of anguish happen when people get the idea that there is this thing called an ego that they must get rid of in order to find Peace and Happiness.

I think that is a mistaken concept. I think there is nothing to get rid of. It is really more of realizing 'who you really are'. Metaphorically speaking, think of leaves on a tree---When you 'awaken' it is more like you realize you are not a leaf independent of a tree. You are one with the tree. You don't get rid of the leaf, you just recognize you are actually the tree. You don't strip the tree of its leaves in order to become one with the tree, you are the tree itself as leaf. You don't deny the leaves just because you realize you are the tree---No, now you enjoy being the very fullness of Your Being, which is this big beautiful, lovely, grand bountiful, ever blooming, everlasting Tree, Tree Am I. The Tree is not a Tree without Its leaves, of course. So we do not try to get rid of any part of the Tree. Yet, it is also good see that the leaves are not the Tree; the Tree is being the leaves.

So, we can see in this metaphor, that like Life, All Knowing Mind must complete Its Self as this array of individual self knowing perspectives. Life completes Itself through the blooms of 'self knowingness' which is this sense of Me and You. Self awareness is what makes the total Wholeness of Divine Mind actually and factually Self-knowing. "We' are the completeness of God.

Like the leaf on the tree, 'you' or the sense of your self as in 'ego' are not a separate or apart from the One Self, the One Mind, the All Inclusive Light I Am. You do not get rid of your self, you expand your view of your self. If we do let go of anything, we let go the mistaken 'single leaf unattached to tree' view.

The non-dualist is saying, one way or another, that there is Only One--- He is saying in all kinds of ways; That there is Only One Being, Only One Awareness, Only One Mind, Only One Ego. I Am Here as part of that Self Awareness. Life tells me that I Am HERE, so Here and Now is What I Am. Here and Now is our Awareness of Life and Life is being the Whole Tree. I can stand Here and say with all my own authority that I am One With Here and Now, and I cannot ever be separate from This Here That I Am (separate from the Tree).

The leaf (persons) would be in misery if it thought it was alone without any Tree being It---and many leaves (persons) do not see they are One with the Wholeness (holyness) of The Tree. Tree of Life Am I.

What do we get rid of? I think we just get rid of the mistaken idea, the false indoctrination, the intellectual dogma that says I have a mind of my own and I am alone and life is in me and its sad and messed up and missing something I cannot ever find. When, in the Light of Truth, the Whole Infinite Light of Life is That I Am and All I have Always been.

Or you could think about it from this angle: Where is this "me" that you think you must get rid of? If I am made of 90% water (and science says my body and my brain are actually 90% water) then where or how can a 'me' a 'self' be, in fact, a bag of water. Water, ever day salt water; if I was really my body, then I would be nothing but water. Yet, I know I exist, I know I am, and I know all bodies are made of mostly water. So where or how does this sense of Self arise? A self is Here because I know I am here.

So, from this, I surmise the Self must be prior to the form, prior to the 'water' bag and "I am" not made of a water. You know you are not made of water. You know you are not a water bag :lol: You know you are not made of matter. So what are you and where are you and how do you exist? You do exist. You exist because (and I will say it my way) Existence is Self-Knowing Intelligence, It is Mind and It is the Only Identity Here. Life, Light, Truth, Reality, is God ---And God Is All That Is, All That Was, and All That Ever Will Be.

And as Jesus says in the Book of Thomas, The Lost Gospels: “Examine yourself, and learn who you are, how you exist, and what will become of you”. The true and genuine mystic will always direct you to go inward, to seek, so ask, "who am I" and inquire of your own true nature. And again, from the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus said, “He who has not known himself does not know anything, but he who has known himself has also known the depth of all”
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.
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Re: Enlightenment and Straight jackets

Postby Sighclone » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:26 am

Lovely posts all.

ZoC - There is a group of nondual psychotherapists, fairly well known actually, who can assist with some of the ego-fear of "letting go." And there are websites (such as this: http://www.balancedview.org/) which offer gentle techniques to assist easing in the transition. Adya has run into some individuals who needed psychotherapy before they could effectively awaken, and is quite careful to encourage that when he senses it is needed. It is a paradox -- it appears that an individuals need a certain level of confidence, stability and strength of ego before he or she can let it go! If you are interested in a list of therapists (who are not primarily spiritual teachers, by the way), comment here or send me a private message.

For some, there comes a point where the fear of letting go is exceeded only by the grinding, helpless monotony of confusion, repetition and ignorance of egoic conditioning. Unity is real. Suffering can end.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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