Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

I just love Adya and I think he deserves his own forum.

Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby jsd80 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:19 am

I will preface this with saying that I have not read every post in this thread, I am probably highly unconscious at this point in time as I have been drinking, and what I say now does not reflect what I may be thinking or my opinion five minutes from now. That being said, I would like to address what seems to be an underlying theme of this thread. I will go ahead and label it, "who is more authentic?". So I have had my doubts about both individuals authenticity from time to time. Someone said in this thread something to the extent of, "both are deeply realized people". I would ask you how you know this to be true. Would it not be fairly easy for someone to simply echo the teachings of those in which they had studied? I for one can personally paraphrase Adya or Eckhart, or anyone else for that matter, in a fashion as if the words I spoke were my own. There is no proof whatsoever that either one of these people are really what they insinuate themselves to be. They both depend on their teachings and books as their number one source of income and livelihood.

If you take on objective view and think about a self proclaimed scholar like Eckhart, or anyone else with some degree of intelligence going out to research a specific subject (in this case the subject would be enlightenment), you could easily see IMO how one could take the stand of basically a journalist. They could cognitively learn the the teachings, and then paraphrase or re-word them in a way that was unique to them.

Anyone who has been in Barnes and Noble or Borders can see the huge boom in the "new age" spirituality section. People these days are abandoning their dogmatic and fundamental religious doctrines to seek out a more all encompassing spiritual doctrine. Eastern spirituality is just starting to take off in The U.S. specifically and has much potential for marketability through books and different venues.

That being said... It really does not matter if either one of these individuals is a "fraud" or not. Why? Because the importance lies in the teaching and not the individual! Who cares if Eckhart or Adya are really "enlightened"? What difference does it make? If they are relaying teachings of significance in which we can learn from, why would it matter to anyone whether they had experienced this truth personally or not. This truth is for each of us to decide if it is true and no one else. Adya always encourages the asking of "why". I agree that asking why is never a bad thing, and one should not be afraid to do it. Adya even admits that listening to his teachings are just an addition to our mental conditioning. If it weren't for mental conditioning (which is what one does when they consume the same information over and over- such as listening to the power of now and other differently worded but similar texts), one could not "learn" this stuff on their own. Could you? Would you have self realized all this had you never heard of ET or Adya? Maybe...but it most likely would have come from something external as well. I believe this is what Adya is getting at when he seems to slam ET for waking up one day realized. It took Adya (according to what he says) years to become self realized/awakened/enlightened etc etc. So you can see where he may be skeptical of ET awakening over-night. That doesn't mean it didn't happen but to be blunt with you: who really gives a shit?

I believe that because Adya and Eckhart are two different people...they have two different personalities and styles of communication. It may be that simple.

I have always questioned the name of this site: "ET fan site". I believe it should be obvious why this name is kind of ridiculous and contradictory to the teachings themselves. Why would one be a "fan" of anyone (in this case ET) when they have listened to ET's teachings and ultimately know if they have absorbed them, that ET and (Adyafor that matter) are one in the same...part of everything and nothing...the same as us...they are us and we are them. So to be a fan of ourselves is ironically kind of the worse form of egoism their may be! WHy be a fan of the messenger when there is no need to even be a fan of the message? The word "fan" automatically triggers the idea of bias. Now, knowing that words are just words...I can easily care less about the name of this website, but someone else may not be in the same place. I mean the guys picture is plastered up their wherever you go. An obvious posing against a studio backdrop. I can hear the camera man saying, "don't look straight into the camera, but to the side as if you know something that no one else knows."

I think what my whole point is here, is that I believe you may be lost if you are still consumed with individual people and their life stories and personalities. IMO that can detract from the essence of the message. It is almost kind of like spiritual celebrity-ism. I remember Kiki saying in one of his posts, "I don't care about some teacher" (paraphrased). Good for you Kiki. I don't either, but I will admit that I would probably be nervous around Adya or Eckhart regardless of this realization that they are no-one special because I have been conditioned like you have to see them on a pedestal because they are "renowned". If we did not have some degree of "worship" for these individuals then sites like this one would not exist. You may argue this if you like, but I would challenge you to ask yourself if this is really true and not care what I have to say.
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby Sighclone » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:30 am

Apparently spending time with truly enlightened people is unusual and transformative. It is those followers who declare the gurus to be enlightened. This site discusses many spiritual concepts and people, not the least of which is Zen and The Bible. It is by no means limited to ET. One's source material for self-realization could be anything, but Eckhart Tolle's writing has a special charm, and his repeated message about the present moment and Stillness has been helpful to many.

To each his own.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby jsd80 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:14 am

Sighclone wrote:Apparently spending time with truly enlightened people is unusual and transformative. It is those followers who declare the gurus to be enlightened. This site discusses many spiritual concepts and people, not the least of which is Zen and The Bible. It is by no means limited to ET. One's source material for self-realization could be anything, but Eckhart Tolle's writing has a special charm, and his repeated message about the present moment and Stillness has been helpful to many.

To each his own.

Namaste, Andy


Andy,

I appreciate what you are saying. You say, "apparently"... is this not your own experience or am I interpreting you incorrectly? I beg to differ about the followers labeling the "gurus" enlightened. You are correct I believe as far as the actual word "Enlightened" goes, but both Adya and ET have described their "awkening" experience in detail. ET's is chapter 1 I believe of the audio version of TPON. There is an interview in which Adya is asked to describe his awakening experience in "Spontaneous Awakening" and he does so in full detail. When you talk about followers, are you talking about following the person or following the truth, because there is a big difference. The message is not the messenger. I believe the special charm that you are referring to with Eckhart is just a matter of personal preference as to the personality and dialog of the messenger..of Eckharts personality if you will. This is a temporal thing, the personality. I don't deny that we all are attracted to different personality types, but personality is part of our conditioning and is ultimately temporary. When we pass I believe that our personality is left behind and our energy lives on. In a sense I believe that a personal preference towards one teacher or another is just a chemistry between the small me's of the two people. Just like we click better socially with some. I really believe that to not "kill the messenger" is equally as important as to not "praise the messenger" for they are just the bearers of gospel so to speak. History has shown this to be true especially in the case of Jesus. People now praise the messenger so much that they are all but totally oblivious to the actual message. ET was my fist experience in this line of teaching and so he holds a special place in my life experience. I lost my spiritual virginity to ET so to speak (that just sounds wrong doesn't it? :D ). I think whoever initially points someone in the direction of truth holds a special place in that persons psyche. For millions of people around the world it has been ET, and that is a good thing Andy :) Thank you
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby kiki » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:41 pm

What really matters is whether one experiences presence for oneself. Listening to, watching, or reading some teachers seems to draw that presence out more easily than others. Who's to say whether that experience of presence is due to the words, to the personality, a combination of both, or some other factor? What is important is that an experience of inner silence takes place so that a shift away from mind activity has a chance to happen. It isn't dependent on anything or anyone. I am reminded of a beautiful scene in the movie American Beauty which illustrates this point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDXjnW3nIWg

I've got to laugh about the description of the ET's photo and how it may have been taken because it is rather cheesy if you stop and think about it. But if you just see it without the mental gymnastics it just is what it is. Experience the stillness (the "beauty" as referenced in the link above) in every situation and leave the rest alone.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby HermitLoon » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:38 pm

Thanks for the link Kiki - a beautiful illustration of the "Joy" part of "Peace and Joy" :)
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby Sighclone » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:29 pm

jsd80 -


Thanks for your comments!! I have a confession to make. Sometimes I make simple bold statements that are intentionally only partly true, such as the one above about followers declaring their gurus to be enlightened. As it was phrased in my post I did not exclude the possibility that gurus would also declare themselves to be enlightened. Of course they have, including Ramana and Nisargadatta. Also, I was talking about the specific followers of the individual. By using the word "apparently" I mean to clarify that I have never sat at the feet of an individual I felt was enlightened, except for my neighbor's golden retriever, of course :) Whew...I hope that addresses your second post.

Now back to the first one, which I have pored over and think I understand: You are asking three things:

You said (1):

I will go ahead and label it, "who is more authentic?". So I have had my doubts about both individuals authenticity from time to time. Someone said in this thread something to the extent of, "both are deeply realized people". I would ask you how you know this to be true. Would it not be fairly easy for someone to simply echo the teachings of those in which they had studied? I for one can personally paraphrase Adya or Eckhart, or anyone else for that matter, in a fashion as if the words I spoke were my own. There is no proof whatsoever that either one of these people are really what they insinuate themselves to be. They both depend on their teachings and books as their number one source of income and livelihood.


Kiki is right, of course, the source of declaration about one's state of consciousness is not important. You have said as much also. Nor, really is the "state of consciousness" of anyone else. Let's say there is a final spiritual barometer of consciousness. It goes from 1-100. And let's say that Awakening begins at 70, and that you get a little badge saying "Enlightened World Master Avatar" when the barometer reads 95 or higher. I would be more inclined to read a book by someone at the 95-100 level. So would most people. But for any given seeker, that could be wrong. Someone hovering at 72-73 could write a koan that would take another from 65 to 83.

And, moreover, the absurdity of all this scenario is the real point. What works for you is good. What doesn't is not bad, just not helpful. So authenticity is moot. And not measurable. And ego-moments and pain-body moments surface even in awakened people.

The second point was about the label of this site as "Fan site." Why is that not forgivable, given the non-native English speaker who is the administrator and the overall pop-cultural style of the web? Perhaps it could have a more inclusive label, sure, but it has to have some label, and anyone who reads a thread or two will realize that much more than worship takes place here.

Third, you said:

I think what my whole point is here, is that I believe you may be lost if you are still consumed with individual people and their life stories and personalities.


People need to start somewhere. If the personality of Osho was compelling to a bunch of twenty-somethings who coughed up their trust funds in the 70s to buy his Rolls-Royces, so what? Maybe they woke up a little. Maybe that was worth it to them. Maybe that experience triggered a more meaningful personal discovery or shift later.

No one who reads this site throroughly could find only ET worship here, without some significant critical commentary. I tend to defend him, in general, because he made a difference for me, and because his writings still do, and I return to them often. I also enjoy Adya's work, and Byron Katie and many others, as you could see from my posts. I also make critical comments about Eckhart - my current questions have to do with the general definition of ego...if we have no self, who is left to experience joy, to have enthusiasm, to ask "who am I?", to witness and be present for painbodies, to experience Presence, and to read the words on this screen, and have dinner tonight, and pay taxes. Some unique entity remains. And that entity has relationships and duties. If it's "no self", and "not ego", what is it. I maybe "am", but at the level of form, which exists, I am not you. And I am not the keyboard in front of me. And, a note from James in another post:

Funny story: Papaji is talking to a woman in satsang. She is upset because she is struggling with this idea that she is an illusion. Papaji says: "if you are an illusion, then who is talking to me?.... Is illusion talking to illusion?... How is that possible?"... The woman replies: "it's not possible". Papaji smiles and says: "then keep quiet"


I guess I would ask Adya: "So you like steaks and tiramisu - if there is "no self", who eats that?"

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby James » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:48 pm

jsd said:
So I have had my doubts about both individuals authenticity from time to time.


It is Presence in you that recognizes Presence in others. Truth recognizes itself.

James
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby jackh » Fri May 29, 2009 9:59 pm

When I read Adyashanti saying "if there is any ego there, it is only the movement of mind saying 'it's mine'", I think of ET when he says that the ego only exists from thought to thought--in both The Power of Now and ANE I believe, Tolle mentions that the ego/self doesn't exist except as a thought--the problem is that the stream of thoughts is continuous.. but even with a slight gap, that whole "sense of self" is gone, because it is nothing but a thought. See where I'm getting at? I don't think it's so much Adyashanti dismissing the ego as really emphasizing the fact that it is nothing but a "me" thought.
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Re: Adyashanti's view of ego, a bit different.

Postby wjon » Fri May 29, 2009 11:28 pm

well, one year later im back and...

Tolle went the right way but he is not complet, he didnt grab it yet.

Do not deny what you feel, because what you feel the ego is needed to undo the little ego,
this gets replaced by the bigger ego which is the only real person that exsist,
and that is God.

And he is everything.
And he is personal.

Why ? because you can proove it.
Logically.

The secret to nirvana is honnesty, and tolle is honnest, but he doesnt have all the words to explain it,
honnesty is acceptance, acceptance is love, love is the same as SEEING, not ignoring, when you see you become One.

When you become One, you knew you were Home always.
There is peace.

Take Care.
Jonathan
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