Nisargadatta + weather?

D'ray
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Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by D'ray » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:29 am

Question: If time and space are mere illusions and you are beyond, please tell me what is the weather in New York. Is it hot or raining there?

Maharaj: How can I tell you? Such things need special training. Or, just travelling to New York. I may be quite certain that I am beyond time and space, and yet unable to locate myself at will at some point of time and space. I am not interested enough; I see no purpose in undergoing a special Yogic training. I have just heard of New York. To me it is a word. Why should I know more than the word conveys? Every atom may be a universe, as complex as ours. Must I know them all? I can — if I train.

Q: In putting the question about the weather in New York, where did I make the mistake?

M: The world and the mind are states of being. The supreme is not a state. It pervades, all states, but it is not a state of something else. It is entirely uncaused, independent, complete in itself, beyond time and space, mind and matter.
IS THIS POSSIBLE? :lol:

Since everything else that Nisargadatta has said resonates with me, but this feels like a marketing trick!
There's no "I" to become enlightened. The "I" can have spiritual experiences.

DON'T resist the RESISTANCE! The resistance is there. Walk into it. Feel it. Become one with it.

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by kiki » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:50 pm

There are special abilities that one can develop called siddhis. Read Patanjali's book Yoga Sutras to find out more if you are interested. But beware, they are full of potential to lead you deeper into identification and ego entrapment, which Patanjali warns you about early in the book.
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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by eyogateacher » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:59 pm

Many confuse "siddhis"(i.e extraodinary powers ) with enlightenment .
Siddhis are possible due to conscious physical /mental effort and that path of Hatha Yoga/Mantra Yoga is full of the same .
For some people they are natural due to past life impressions .But that has got nothing to do with "knowing yourself" .

Papaji has said in his book "Nothing Ever Happened" that he met a Yogi in Himalayas who had the 8 Siddhis as mentioned in Patanjali Yoga Sutras but yet that person was agitated as he was not yet self aware and when he met Papaji he surrendered and gave up his siddhis and asked him to take him as his discipline and help him understand himself .

An enlightened person ( i.e a self aware person ) may or may not have siddhis .If he has siddhis it is purely due to the effect of his efforts in past life but he never consciously tries to acquire the same after he becomes self aware .

But there are many instances of people experiencing miracles in the presence of Ramana . When asked about the same Ramana said that the "self" does not do anything and it remains a witness but in the presence of a jnani i.e a self aware person certain miracles happen automatically for certain people and it cant be generalised and he said that people need not break their head over the same or waste the time thinking about it .

There is a saying in Tamil Language i.e the greatest of siddhi is Jnana Siddhi i.e understanding yourself .

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by kiki » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:56 pm

As mentioned by eyogateacher, there are many people who have mistakenly thought enlightenment was dependent upon the acquiring of siddhis, myself included. This was due to what I feel was an erroneous teaching by my first spiritual teacher. His emphasis was always on the development of these special powers and he geared his teaching towards the attainment of them (which of course brought in lots of money for his organization - pretty nice deal for him, huh?). Of course this always put enlightenment into some future time that we all strove towards and which further depleted our bank accounts. That dynamic is what came to an end when other teachers, notably ET for me, pointed out the simplicity and immediacy of what enlightenment actually was, and how it has nothing to do with the siddhis. That has made all the difference for me.
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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by eyogateacher » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:27 pm

Kiki

You are very much right .Many people on the path of Yoga are trapped in this myth of siddhis . Yoga no doubt is an excellent discipline to keep the body and mind healthy and relaxed situation but going to extremes in involving in practices to get peak experiences / siddhis is not productive . I know of an American Yoga practitioner who has been practising Yoga for more than 20 years and yet joining more courses , new teachers and learning new . When I met her in my city in India I told her if she believes that enlightenment is something to be achieved in a distant future then she is just chasing a mirage and I introduced her to the works of Ramana , Classical Vedanta and other Non Duality teachers .She could not believe that Enlightenment can be so simple and felt frustrated that she had been running around searching for something that was quite simple .This is the problem with many spiritual seekers i.e they cannot believe in something that is so simple .

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:36 pm

All this said, and I agree with everything said by eyogateacher and kiki, siddhis get easier to learn after awakening, I believe...much easier. And they become much less interesting. If I'm not mistaken, kiki, you and I had the same first spiritual teacher...

Manifesting, in all its forms, is a siddhi. "The Law of Attraction - 'The Secret' " attempts to add siddhi-power to everyday consciousness. It has marginal success, with lots of bundled "fears that I'm not focussed correctly on my goals so they won't happen on my timetable" kind of side effects. Manifesting requires intention and attention, but its success will be dependent on conscious or unconscious beliefs - this is per Nanci Danison ("Backwards - Returning to our Source for Answers.")

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by the key master » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:46 am

Sighclone said,
All this said, and I agree with everything said by eyogateacher and kiki, siddhis get easier to learn after awakening, I believe...much easier. And they become much less interesting.
Yes. I never believed in most siddhis, and at the very least never thought myself capable of performing them. Since awakening, I've had many strange experiences that for the most part have taken place totally on their own with no sense of doership involved. I bought the book The Mentalist's Handbook and began to experiment with mind capability. I've since stopped.

I've stated before that since spiritual awakening I stopped having lucid dreams. I now realize that many of my experiences during sleep went far beyond the definition of lucid dreaming and into the realm of astral travel. Interstingly, the day after I stopped training my mind to perform various tricks I had an absolutely insane lucid dream:

I'm laying on the bottom bunk of a bunkbed. I sense someone is on the top bunk, and as I now live alone in my own house, I knew something wasn't right. Needless to say I don't actually have a bunkbed anyway but that's not what caused the dream to become lucid. So I get up out of the bottom bunk and see an ordinary looking fellow laying on the top bunk. Then the dream immediately skips forward to me laying back in the bottom bunk, this time sensing that someone was on the top bunk, but feeling very threatened by him. (Wow I'm not sure why but writing this out is making my whole body vibrate) I look up and see through the structure of the bed an eye gazing down on me, a very haunting stare. Now I start to realize I'm in the dream or sleep state. I rationalize that I live alone, and start to take control of the dream, although not yet total control. As I stand up, this time I see a man, with one leg missing, completely naked so that the full deformity of his body was apparent. His face was mangled and bloodied. He had sores on his body and was bleeding heavily from the head. (Upon reflection, I feel this man was a symbol of my ego/egoic life. Sometimes things gotta get messed up before awakening occurs.) So anyways, I'm completely horrified and turn to run away, while at the same time thinking this isn't real, this is most definitely a dream. Then I take full control and the house I'm in completely disappears as I'm suddenly shot into an outdoor landscape. I realize oh yeah here we go and jump off the ground knowing full well that I'm not going to land. Everything disappears. Then perception gets very distorted. I no longer sense a body and seem to be viewing the experience through a 360 degree perception. A brief transition period takes place where I'm kind of just floating in total darkness. Then a physical world becomes apparent. Steering during flight was difficult and clumsy at times, but the experience itself was utterly amazing. During flight I actually thought back to techniques I read about and was able to explore some possibilities. I'm confident that the world I was exploring was uninhabited by man, so either in the distant past or future. It sounds ridiculous I realize...

One could argue that the world I was exploring was completely the product of a lucid dream and I was actually manifesting this world within my own mind. I'm convinced otherwise. My mind was exploring, not creating. Unlike some lucid dreams, I didn't have control of the environment. At one point I asked myself where the hell is everyone. I want to see what people are doing. I want to perform remote viewing. While I could control flight I could not control environment. Moreover, the instant I asserted my mind to altering the environment, I left whatever dimension I was in. Colors got very bright, almost cartoon like, as I sensed myself vibrating into another realm. Things got very abstract. I had no idea where the hell this place was, only that it could not have been a product of my mind as this dimension was absolutely nothing like the world we live or anything I've ever consciously experienced. There were energetic sensations but ultimately the comfort level wasn't there and I woke up. If I ever get back to that place I'll hopefully be more willing to let go of environmental control, or not.

Just thought I'd share one experience,
Jason

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Sighclone » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:13 pm

Jason -

Nanci Danison had an NDE and discusses it in "Backwards", her new book. She mentions realms much like that you described. So does Michael Newton in his three books about "Life Between Lives." I had a dream of a home invasion during my first two-three week awakening. Thieves came in and looked around, but they didn't like what was around to take, took a few very small things. I interpret that to mean my old ego was pretty shattered. Who knows. Growth and progress...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by the key master » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:53 pm

I had a very real insight about the experience I posted above.

I said,
During flight I actually thought back to techniques I read about and was able to explore some possibilities.
This isn't actually true. I found myself utilizing techniques I'd previously read about, not correlating in any way to thought. It was a very in the moment experience. It literally was is if there was no doer, literally effortless, hardly memorable.

Then I said,
I want to see what people are doing. I want to perform remote viewing. While I could control flight I could not control environment. Moreover, the instant I asserted my mind to altering the environment, I left whatever dimension I was in.
Yes, this is true. I remember thinking these thoughts. Once I started to assert control/think, not necessarily the world, but my perception of the world became distorted, which is exactly the way it goes down while I'm awake. I started to feel separate; a sense of doership emerged. Control, and thought revolving around control, truly represent the linchpin of the obstacles to Presence. I don't just get it now, I see it.


--Jason

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Soul Seeker » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:43 am

Thats interesting about your dream Andy. I don't seem to have many dreams these days, but last night I had a dream that I was in my studio working. Next thing the roller door to the lane way went up and two young men were there, they wanted to know if I had anything for sale, furniture etc I said no and as quick as anything they snatched a red velvet drape that was hanging across the roller door ( in reality it doesnt exist) and they ran down the street, I stood watchng them bemused. I then found that they had tampered with the lock on the roller door.

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:32 am

I do not know much about dream interpretation...mine or yours, but I have enough experience in awakening to think that most dreams are the ego working out its needs and conflicts...while We watch...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by the key master » Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:13 pm

Sighclone said,
I do not know much about dream interpretation...mine or yours, but I have enough experience in awakening to think that most dreams are the ego working out its needs and conflicts...while We watch...
Yes I agree. I had a great dream last night. I'll make it quick. I'm on a giant cruise ship with my family. My older brother and I are messing around in the belly of the ship. We're on a ledge that drops about 200 feet to a cement floor. My body falls off the ledge. My awareness stays with my older brother, engaging him in conversation. I say, "Look and see if he's alive." He looks, and shakes his head indicating that the body was indeed dead. Strangely, I was ok with this. This is the first dream I've ever had where I was completely detached from my body for a large portion of the dream. I've lost a sense of having a body many times, but never of watching myself die and not even caring. I'm 27, my brother is 29. In the dream, I rationalized well its ok I've lost the 27 year old manifestation of myself but I still have the 29 year old body. I remember being bummed that I gained 2 years in age in an instant, but its comical now. Then, my awareness grabbed some darts and started launching them at my fallen body to make sure it was dead. Haha thats so funny to me. I drilled it with 3 darts and said, yeah its definitely dead. Ego diminishing and unity implications are obvious.

Going the other direction, I previously stated that part of my previous sleep experience more closely resembled astral travel than a lucid dream. I'm still leaning that way. From what I've read, people who write about astral travel are split as to whether astral travel occurs during sleep. The author of The Mentalist's Handbook is convinced that astral travel and sleep experiences are distinct. I say that may be for him, but how can he speak for everyone? For the most part and seemingly for most people though, I concur.

-Jason

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Sighclone » Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:15 am

km -

Cool dream. My how harsh...throwing darts at the body (ego)!! I've always been very "grounded." I'm the final "show me" guy. So my experience with ET has been pretty convincing for me to go on and on. I've had a few experiences of pre-cognition, but no astral travel (although some far out dreams.) I would be the last one to know much about the link between astral travel and sleep...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Soul Seeker » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:00 am

I had many years of astral travel - it was during sleep except for twice when I was awake. For a time it was almost every night but hese days hardly ever. There was one night in which I left my body and went into the lounge room and I saw the my cat had done a pooh behind the TV, next morning I went out and she had done it just were I saw it, she had never done anything like this before. Another time I was astral traveling around a cliff and I could actually see how the wind swilrling against it in great detail, I spoke to a friend where knew about such things and he said that what I had seen was correct, that is how wind currents worked. There was no fear or anything while I was doing the traveling - I was just awareness - it was always very peaceful. When I came back into my body there was often a bit of a thug and a jerk

I had an interesting experience this morning, as soon as I opened my eyes and looked around the room I had a complete knowing that all was impermanent, myself included. It was also all linked - all one this impermanence and then I had a knowing - a real knowing - that the awareness was permanent. These words are not doing any justice to what I experience - though it was fleeting. I hardly did anything today, I have been very still and silent, watched some of The Peaceful Warrior and went to sleep again. Once I would have done this that or the other being Sunday but I just gave into this tireness, in fact I have been feeling tired all week but it is differnt - it feels like there is very little stress in my body and it is like relief. It may be that I finished off a painting that I had been working on for a while. Before that I had a great many insight that keep coming and coming, one day I had to sit with my fear for a good bit and just watch it. It dissolved and hasnt returned.

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Re: Nisargadatta + weather?

Post by Sighclone » Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:31 pm

Soul Seeker -

Even with the artful phrasing of kiki, WW, onceler, innerhike, km, eputkonen, heidi, James, dk, hl and many others here, it is the honest, heartfelt clear descriptions of personal moments like those you honored us with today that are the very best gifts in this forum. Thanks for being here. :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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