The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

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Sighclone
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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by Sighclone » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:41 am

This response is mostly conceptual and recitative -- it is not made from continuous deep personal experience, although I have many periods of pure awareness, I'm on thin ice here.

When the self is subsumed into the Self, motivation, action and response occur much more automatically and organically, utterly lacking the overlay of ego, need and wanting. When a leaf changes color in autumn, does the leaf do it? Do souls (or Light Beings ala Nanci Danison) pre-program lifetimes? I have no answer for that.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by tod » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:13 pm

dobro wrote:I'm not wondering about whether there's a doer or not - I'm wondering about doing. I'm not interested in whether someone or something is directing the attention - I'm interested in the directing of attention. Either everything just happens on its own, or sometimes, in some cases, we choose this or that. I think we can't choose to be this or that sort of person, because the personality has a lot of depth and a lot of built-in self-preservation momentums, but I do think that we can choose where we place our attention, especially if we slow down and go inside ourselves and ignore external distractions for a while. I also feel that attention is from a part of ourselves above mind and body, that it's freer than mind and body. I call it 'doing'. And I wonder why Kiki says that isn't 'doing'. It's not a big issue what you call it, I suppose, but it makes all the difference what sort of attention is operating in you at any moment - whether it's captured by some object that you're lost in, or whether you're remembering yourself. Remembering myself, in my experience, takes a certain amount of relaxed effort. That's why I call it 'doing'.
Hi dobro, I'll have a go at dabbling in attention:

Attention can either be at-tension or a-tension. At-tension is the tension between (at least) two points (of view) - the points being points of at-tension as well - points held in place by tension (stress).

A-tension, on the other hand, is without tension, or diffused (de-fused) tension.
I'm interested in the directing of attention.
Or, I is directing attention in the direction of the direction of attention.

The I is attention held in place by attention, as is the direction; direction being the way between points of (held) attention.

So doing appears to be done by attention attending to attention... but from the 'point of view' of attention is anything actually done?

Thanks for your post,

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by dobro » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:38 pm

No, I feel sure I don't understand your ideas about attention :lol: but thanks for trying out a new way of thinking about it with me.

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by Hand » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:37 pm

Sighclone wrote
Can you touch your nose? Then you are doing something. Or maybe not. Maybe for enlightened people the passive voice is correct..."My nose is being touched."
This reminds me of Byron Katie she says in one of her books she is being 'breathed'!

Tod - interesting post although my simple mind fails to grasp it (maybe too much tension?)
Life is. Accept Life. Peace reigns.

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by enigma » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:19 am

I'm a bit behind on this conversation, but what's being touched on here is extremely important in my view.
It's true to say nobody is controlling anything, but some confusion remains because this isn't the whole story. The confusion arises from the dualistic concept of control where one hears he is not in control and then imagines something else is controlling him, which is also not true.

At the simplest level, the person who questions his control, or lack of, doesn't exist to begin with, so the question dissolves, and it never arises again. The best answer to such questions is that the questions don't make sense because they're based on a false premise. The universe does not operate on some principle of control, which would require a controller and something controlled. It can be more useful to think in terms of potential actualizing spontaneously.

Some will say it all just happens, which again is true, and again is not the whole story. 'Just happening' may imply a random activity or a cause/effect function like billiard balls bouncing around on a table, but what is left out is the intelligence behind this 'happening'.

This is not the sort of intelligence that ponders goals and processes. We're talking about an intelligence prior to thought, which is the source of thought, and this intelligence is what you are, and so your true nature, as opposed to your imagined identity, is now re-entering the scene, though in an entirely different way. If you are the singular intelligence which is perceiving and forming thoughts, it's difficult to say you are not involved in what happens and that it 'just happens'. In fact, you are the source of all that happens.

The 'I' has been put back into the 'equation' though not as a controller or even a thinker, but as what you actually are; the intelligence of Awareness itself. Somebody in this discussion was interested in how and where attention lands or comes about, and this is key. Awareness does indeed have a focus of attention that drives both perception and creation. Rather than being controlled or constrained in some way, Awareness rests in the infinite potential that IS Now, as it unfolds into actuality. There are no controllers, but there also are no victims. You are not running the show, as Awareness, but you ARE the show. What is paying attention right now is not a person, it's You.

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by Sighclone » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:48 am

Splendid, enigma! Thanks!

Balsekar and Nisargadatta both talk about Spontaneous Doership.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by arel » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:35 pm

I"m going to jump in, and add... some more confusion probably :)

I've been noticing that it is important to realize from what perspective are the questions being asked. It's as if there is a perspective of pure consciousness, perspective of body-mind, and the combined perspective of conscious body-mind (or body-mind consciousness or whatever we call it) This way the answer can be related to better.

As a disclaimer I think that writing on here using language is already putting in a body-mind perspective, that can't be helped, language is a function of that perspective.

From perspective of pure consciousness the body-mind is in continuous conditioned stimulus-response cycle, and I'm simply observing.

From perspective of body-mind there is consciousness, which is our deepest self, which when realized seems to direct attention and change the way the body-mind does. Does the stimulus-response cycle. So there seems to be more free will on the part of pure consciousness now.

Self-realization is like coming home, it's a nice thing. So it happens more often. Or some just stay there I guess, because it's just nice. This introduces the combined perspective of self-aware-I-body-mind (haha). From how I see it right now my body-mind is not possible without pure consciousness and the I-presence that's self aware is not possible without the body-mind. From this point on the happening, experience takes a slightly different course (or relatively not that slightly, like sitting on a bench for 2 years). From this point on it is One mystery.

I can relate to a message that Jesus said, here it is I'll cut and paste from a post my Mistral:
Jesus said : "If they say to You, 'Where did You come from ?', say to them : 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being of itself, established itself and revealed (edit arel: realized?) itself in their image. If they say to You : 'Who are You ?', say : 'We are its sons. We are the elect of the Living Father.' If they ask You : 'What is the sign of Your Father in You ?', say to them : 'It is movement and rest.(edit arel: stillness of awareness and movement of body-mind)'
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by enigma » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:56 am

Hi Arel
Yes, i see what you are saying, though talking about a "pure consciousness" perspective sets off all kinds of red flags for me. Hehe.
Surely, pure consciousness is all perspectives, and therefore none, but it is possible for a mind (or Awareness, if you like) to perceive What Is rather than what mind THINKS it is. There is a continuum here, of course, but we could say the sage is able to see, and talk about, what is. All of us can see What Is to some degree or another though mostly our perception is heavily clouded by conditioning and ignorance (false knowledge).

To me, it's only possible to see what is, if we come empty to every relationship, whether it be a relationship with another person, or a tree, or a circumstance. What I mean is to come without judgment, fear, expectation, need or bias of any kind. To see what is present by simply being present to it, looking to see what is so, rather than what we want to be so.

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by dobro » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:02 pm

enigma said: I'm a bit behind on this conversation

dobro: Me too. :-)

enigma: It's true to say nobody is controlling anything, but some confusion remains because this isn't the whole story. The confusion arises from the dualistic concept of control where one hears he is not in control and then imagines something else is controlling him, which is also not true.

At the simplest level, the person who questions his control, or lack of, doesn't exist to begin with, so the question dissolves, and it never arises again. The best answer to such questions is that the questions don't make sense because they're based on a false premise.

dobro: Good. Satisfying.


enigma: The universe does not operate on some principle of control, which would require a controller and something controlled. It can be more useful to think in terms of potential actualizing spontaneously.

Some will say it all just happens, which again is true, and again is not the whole story. 'Just happening' may imply a random activity or a cause/effect function like billiard balls bouncing around on a table, but what is left out is the intelligence behind this 'happening'.

This is not the sort of intelligence that ponders goals and processes. We're talking about an intelligence prior to thought, which is the source of thought, and this intelligence is what you are, and so your true nature, as opposed to your imagined identity, is now re-entering the scene, though in an entirely different way. If you are the singular intelligence which is perceiving and forming thoughts, it's difficult to say you are not involved in what happens and that it 'just happens'. In fact, you are the source of all that happens.

dobro: Okay, so when I said "but I do think that we can choose where we place our attention, especially if we slow down and go inside ourselves and ignore external distractions for a while. I also feel that attention is from a part of ourselves above mind and body, that it's freer than mind and body", and if I was talking about the 'pre-mental intelligence' that you're talking about, then would you say that this intelligence 'doesn't choose things, it makes things happen'.

enigma: The 'I' has been put back into the 'equation' though not as a controller or even a thinker, but as what you actually are; the intelligence of Awareness itself.

I love the way you say 'the 'I' has been put back into the equation'. I wish we had different words for the different kinds of 'I" we're dealing with. These conversations can get confusing otherwise. How about: 'body I', 'mind I', consciousness 'I'? Or would you say 'body I' and 'mind I' are the same thing?

enimga: You are not running the show, as Awareness, but you ARE the show. What is paying attention right now is not a person, it's You.

dobro: Not running the show, but the show itself. So, when I (mind I) perceive myself (mindself) to be directing attention in meditation, actually it's what the show happens to be up to at the moment?

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by enigma » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:04 am

Hi Dobro
Thanks for you comments. This is an excellent focus for me.
dobro: Okay, so when I said "but I do think that we can choose where we place our attention, especially if we slow down and go inside ourselves and ignore external distractions for a while. I also feel that attention is from a part of ourselves above mind and body, that it's freer than mind and body", and if I was talking about the 'pre-mental intelligence' that you're talking about, then would you say that this intelligence 'doesn't choose things, it makes things happen'.
I think we are talking about the same intelligence. I would say it neither chooses nor makes anything happen, both of which seem to imply a 'contemplative' intelligence; one which thinks about thoughts. This thinking about thoughts is a unique quality of the split mind, which is an imaginary process happening within intelligence.(Intelligence makes it possible to imagine a thinker and a perceiver of thoughts, and perhaps some other divisions like ego and superego, self and Self, etc, none of which have any independent nature and are simply more thoughts arising from intelligence)

Intelligence is simply the source, and the 'involvement' of this intelligence is driven entirely by it's own reflection. An analogy might be a set of mirrors set up in a room, each of which respond to light by reorienting themselves in some way. (The mirrors are individualized perspectives, and the light is intelligence) If there is no light, there is no movement. When the light shines, all the mirrors start moving and there is a light show, although the light source remains constant and unchanging and is not 'choosing' to move the mirrors. Everything is responding with this intelligence, but the response is determined by what happens in the room, not what happens in the light source. The light literally IS what is happening, but the light itself has no intention, desire or need. The Light is empty of all that, and yet is the very essence of all activity within the room. It does not choose or make certain things happen, but it is the source of 'choosing' and happenings.
dobro: Not running the show, but the show itself. So, when I (mind I) perceive myself (mindself) to be directing attention in meditation, actually it's what the show happens to be up to at the moment?
Exactly. All of the mirrors in the universe have aligned just so, and the dobro mirror finds itself meditating.

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by dobro » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:43 am

Well, if that's the case, then a good approach is to live the equivalent of: "Well, what's next, then?"

Um...no, I didn't say that right. I'll try again: a good approach is to live the equivalent of: "Well, what's unfolding now?"

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by Max Power » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:17 am

cuno wrote:Hello dear friends;

I read the book called I AM THAT and as far as I understand the awareness Sri Nisargadatta (and of course ET) describes is the choiceless awareness-the art of doing nothing…or is it not??.but some words he says is sometimes paradoxical..here is one..

Q:How is it done?
M:Refuse all thoughts except one:the thought ‘I am’.(page 18-The self stands beyond mind)


Here he says REFUSE!Which is saying doing something..Does he say this for the mundanes..??but in choiceless we don’t refuse anything only stay with the consciousness here and now…any comments
Much of the 'I am that' is contradictive.

He's not wrong or even right, he, like all words and gurus are pointers.

Everything has a measure of value, but the value is always a little hidden. It's on purpose you create this, for the simply truth is not a book or a seminar, not even spending 10 years with a guru. There's no real discovery of even conscious growth by knowing the truth without it being slightly covered up.

I've never read or heard a guru, modern or ancient that seemed to have the whole thing nailed down.

The more content and form we add, the more everything gets hidden. The answer lies in taking what seesm to make sense and be truthful and leaving the rest out.

Max

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by jimmyrich » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:42 pm

re: Q:How is it done?
M:Refuse all thoughts except one:the thought ‘I am’.(page 18-The self stands beyond mind)
>> In my current experience of awakening, the statement leaves out an important element. When I stay with "I am", there has to be the FEELING of whatever that brings and in my case, there is a difficult to describe FEELING of: empty yet full: happiness, comfort, knowing, joy, awareness, ease, security, honesty, empathy, LOVE and other positive things that my egoic little self rarely FEELS. Maybe the Nissie believed that others will automatically FEEL or realize these things by staying with "I am" or he just didn't think it necessary to go on and on about it but, for me, the FEELING of awakening is the whole thing because I have told myself many times that I am nothing, I am nobody but just the other day, I actually felt (realized) the truths of those statements and suddenly most of ET's and others teaching made total sense! Sorry to say that I am not in that reality right now as I write this but the memory and reality of it lingers on and I can't help but miss the deep and profound FEELING of "I am nothing yet all that there is!"
Ramana often spoke of the FEELING of realization ("It's the feeling I am and no thoughts."~RM) and warned us to beware of "words".

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by rideforever » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:05 pm

No doer : unless we can read each other's thoughts then we are individuated. There is a 'doer'.

A problem seems to come when someone falls out of the collective mind and feels a universal expansiveness and an end to pain; and then there is no further investigation because the investigation was driven by human pain.

But clearly if we are individuated then we are 'doers' or 'be-ers'.

Furthermore there is a sense of a great mechanism that we are within. However awakeness is not mechanical; and understandings rarely accept or embody that. The understanding of 'all that is' as mechanical is a reflection of the mind that is still subtly present : the understanding of it being mechanical is a reflection of the tool of understanding, the mechanical mind. But ... all this can be discarded.

The dimension we exist in colonises all understandings, like an empire collecting countries. No religion or teaching exists that has not been colonised; although some like advaita and rajneeshism seem to bear fruit. Our passion must be to penetrate far beyond teachings, into Real.

Listening to that, most seekers instantly turn off. Because they thought they had arrived. In other words ... they were looking for a place to rest. But Real is not a place to rest.

How many talk of peacefulness or balance etc... this reveals the hidden agenda, an end of suffering. A quiet bed to lay down in with no more problems. Don't you see how conditioned it is by the human animal ?

Real is only Real, shimmering in its cataclysmic impossibility. Like Lightning.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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Re: The art of doing nothing and mundane thoughts

Post by rideforever » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:33 pm

So assuming that you have made contact with objective existence there are a number of different domains you have access to :

> the objective
> the individuated objective (you can't enter my existence)
> the human body-mind

We also have access to :

> love
> intelligence
> emptiness

Which are distinct 'energies', gods that are intertwined with your specific existence you may say.

What is the objective ... on its own ? Without a human ? What is the objective doing ? Well ... nothing.

It needs this human body-mind to express itself. Without the human it is empty of expression. So the human that we are all trying to escape is so critical and we must honour this human.

Who is it that struggles ? The objective ? Well, no the objective is already there.

Only this courageous blind mess ... can have the heart to struggle. Rocky.

He knows not why, but he fights. Behind the unconscious masses, is such a noble struggle. Such honour in simply breathing.

So this talk of doing nothing bears no heed of this situation; of the divinity of our journeys and the possibilities to come.

If we stop it is only because we have not noticed the importance of the human, and because our energy is still conditioned by the human condition - that we claim to have escaped.

Love. What is Love ? Objectively ? Where does it come from ? How does it travel ? How are we in connection with it ?

Aphrodite. Perhaps there was once on an ancient and distant world, one species, and one individual called Aphrodite, who loved Truth so greatly that from the humble home of her body-mind, she reached beyond the nature of that world, and became constellated in the heavens. Her soaring was so high that she become a new energy - Love itself, a created from Truth, that travels the universe connecting beings with this new energy of joy emotional connection. Her honesty created Love, that we now feel. The same with intelligence, perhaps created by another being. It is said that Siva, the god of emptiness, was the Ady-Guru ... the first mortal Guru who's love was so great that he created the emptiness.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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