Eckhart and Byron Katie

HowToKnowGod
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Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by HowToKnowGod » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:57 am

Eckhart says that true happiness can't be found through the mind.

Byron Katie says that by using our mind to change our beliefs, we can be happy.

Eckhart endorsed Byron Katie.

Why?

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by karmarider » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:56 am

Byron Katie's approach is too analytical for this mind, but it seems to work for many. Is it about changing beliefs, or is it about seeing through beliefs?

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by Onceler » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:36 am

I believe they end up at the same place....awareness.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:13 am

BKs approach uses inquiry to reduce the impact of negative thinking/feeling on us. She, like Ramana, uses the mind (a thorn) to remove another thorn(negative, circular, depressing thoughts). The end result is pure awareness, uncluttered with "me-thoughts." "Loving What Is" is her primary book on the technique called "the work."

By the way, The Sedona Method has a similar cognitive effect.

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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by Plorel » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:24 am

Byron Katie says that by using our mind to change our beliefs, we can be happy.
Thats not entirely correct as I understand it. The mind only asks the questions. Then you go inside, get still and let your heart answer.
Its another way to go beyond the mind.

Actually what I hear from her tapes, what you mention is a common trap to fall into when you do The Work.
If you think you know how the answers should look like and you dont go inside to find an answer there, the mind has slid in through the back door and the effect of The Work is gone. Therefore you dont try to change your beliefs, you meet them with understanding and the love of truth. Then, eventually, they will let go of you.

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by erict » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:57 pm

HowToKnowGod wrote:Eckhart says that true happiness can't be found through the mind.

Byron Katie says that by using our mind to change our beliefs, we can be happy.

Eckhart endorsed Byron Katie.

Why?
You're not going to get far with this kind of approach. There will always be contradictions, in any teaching, especially if you look at them at such a superficial, conceptual level.

Eckhart makes a clear distinction between what he calls happiness, which is within the duality, as one side of the happiness-unhappiness specturm, and peace, which has no opposite since it is outside of duality. I suppose that by 'true happiness' he means something that is outside of duality. And what Katie is saying is that by changing beliefs we can become happier. As Eckhart has pointed out, most suffering is self-created, and Katie is offering a method to reduce the amount of the self-created suffering.

Well, something like that at any rate, but let me ask you something: what difference did that just make for you? Is any of it related directly to your own process, or you're just indulging the mind in pointless abstract discussion?
"Be sincere; don't ask questions out of mere interest. Ask dangerous questions—the ones whose answers could change your life."

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by HowToKnowGod » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:30 pm

I do the work constantly. It's almost as regular to me as being in the inner body. I find it exciting to see a belief in a new manner. In fact, a lot of the time, if a negative belief comes up, I don't even have to do the work because I already know from doing it so many times, that it's going to give me new perspectives on any situation, so no matter how bad I feel, I already know that it can't be too bad, there are other ways of looking at it.

Then I realize that the troubles keep continuing, I keep having situations where I want to use the work. Perhaps by being in the mind so much with this "work" thing, I'm getting away from the power of now.

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by erict » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:59 pm

Now your question is starting to make real sense. :) I think this way you will get much better answers.
HowToKnowGod wrote:Then I realize that the troubles keep continuing, I keep having situations where I want to use the work. Perhaps by being in the mind so much with this "work" thing, I'm getting away from the power of now.
I don't think so. The Work is something you do with thoughts once they arise, it isn't something that brings them out in the first place. The process is making you more aware of your thoughts as merely thoughts, but still it is a slow, gradual process.

What do you mean by "troubles"? External events or internal reactions?
"Be sincere; don't ask questions out of mere interest. Ask dangerous questions—the ones whose answers could change your life."

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by jackh » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:39 pm

I agree with karmarider, it's really too analytical for me, and a lot of the time just putting what seem to be my limiting beliefs into words changes them. I find my resistance much easier to be aware of on a physical level. Also, I don't really find Ramana's approach similar, I really like his self inquiry style because it's a lot like Tolle's in that you use attention to find peace, not thought.

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by Plorel » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:28 am

I agree with karmarider, it's really too analytical for me, and a lot of the time just putting what seem to be my limiting beliefs into words changes them. I find my resistance much easier to be aware of on a physical level.
The great thing about modern times is that due to the diversity of information sources, everyone can pick what works for him best and leaves the rest aside.
Anyway I just want to mention that in my experience, there is nothing analytical about "The Work". You dont analyse anything. You just ask a question and go inside for an answer. It doesnt get much easier.
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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by RCharles » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:27 am

Plorel said:
...everyone can pick what works for him best...
That's a very important point. Also, you may want to use different tools at different times. I practice Presence constantly, but sometimes a stubborn thought or emotion comes along that won't let go. Then I apply Katie's questions, and often I can let the thought go.

To cut firewood, you need a chainsaw; to cut lumber, you need a tablesaw. Both tools cut wood, but each has its appropriate use, depending on the task.

RC
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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by randomguy » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:48 pm

Plorel wrote:You just ask a question and go inside for an answer.
Agreed. How else is truth familiarized?
Sometimes in doing the work, the turn-around is immediately recognized as also not true. There is an aspect of mind working on mind, like a baseball pitcher who is consistently missing to the right, so throws a couple intentionally wide left to shake the pattern. The intent is to dispel attachment to thought until reality is the barometer of truth and the core delusion of thought-identification is easily recognized.

Aside from the work, Katie provides plenty of pointers in her narration, "Thousand Names for Joy". I found the pointers in "Thousand Names for Joy" (audio) to be harmonious with the pointers in "Power of Now" (audio).
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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by jackh » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:45 pm

I may be doing it wrong but asking myself if a belief is true takes a ton of sifting through thought and memory to come to an answer.

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by randomguy » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:15 pm

jackh wrote:I may be doing it wrong
How can that possibly be true except to the mind?
jackh wrote:but asking myself if a belief is true takes a ton of sifting through thought and memory to come to an answer.
When asking the unmanifested, there is no central point of view. The answer to "Is it true?" is a non-answer and is felt. The thought and the question disappears. If the "answer" is a conclusion of the mind (another thought) it to can be questioned. That's just my experience though.

There is the cognitive follow through if a "yes" keeps popping up. Ask "What happens in reality?", compare the believed thought to observed reality and default to the underlying intelligence of reality as the way things are, then continue down the list and repeat. If it feels like faith, the thought may not yet have been registered as not true "within", not true to our heart. Searching cognitively for other possible explanations may assist in it's recognition of not true (the thorn to remove a thorn in a specific sense). I went that route with "My wife should not get angry with me." For whatever reason, that one was not clicking . :) Entertaining the statement, "I look forward to my wife getting angry at me" is also not true, it deals with time, a projected story of the future as well as a conceptual separate self, but it's consideration points to an underlying surrender to reality that is obscured when believing the original thought. Or at least that's the best story that emerges for explaining that. Is this explanation true?

Previously mentioned Ramana's meditative "Who am I?", a.k.a. "What am I?" allows Consciousness itself to unravel thought identification.
How can we possibly go wrong?

Reminds me of Maharaj's, "There is no other requirement but earnestness."
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Re: Eckhart and Byron Katie

Post by Sighclone » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:28 am

As with The Sedona Method, the answers to the first two questions in the work ("Is it true, Can I be absolutely sure it is true?") really do not matter. Tha last two questions and the "turnaround" are the ones that count. Plus, the whole process brings the thoughts and associated feelings into the refining beam of presence and they tend to lose their impact on us.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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