Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Talk about relationships in the context of Spiritual Enlightenment

Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby Clouded » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:19 pm

I don't understand how true love can come and go as what usually happens in romantic relationships (I suppose that most people at some point of their relationship considered their partner as their soul mate before their feelings changed and then that person was reduced to a stranger). I always believed that true love is here to stay, always present no matter what and nothing and no-one can take it away. I don't understand how your love for another can be diminished because you found somebody else to love, that doesn't sound like true love to me, that sounds like the other person was more available to be loved. Your skype buddy wanted someone to love (don't we all?) and you weren't physically available to them; they couldn't take you on a date to the movies/restaurant/etc as most couples do and they found someone else that allows them to experience this (unless its long distance too?). Sorry to sound so insensitive, maybe that's why I've never been in a relationship, I don't want someone's superficial love. I know that some people experience heart breaks because their significant other no longer loves them and their love is being thrown away despite all their efforts to get that person back. Unrequited love = still true love between two people? I don't ever want to experience that and I am so sorry if this is happening to you. If I were you, i'd be thankful that at least I got to experience those positive feelings even if it was only for a little while. Doesn't matter how long the loving feeling lasted, you felt it once and for some, it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Maybe one day when your heart heals, you'll feel it again for someone else.
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby Melkmeisje » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:04 pm

Thank you so much for your wonderful replies :)

Yesterday, we ended our relationship, and although there is sadness inside me, at the same time I feel calm about it. I noticed that in the last few weeks, I was trying to hold on to him, convincing him to give it another try. However, in the last few days, I increasingly felt that it was not going to work, and that I was forcing something that was not there anymore. It just didn't feel natural. And a feeling came up that I should just let go. While I was afraid of doing this immediately, this feeling became stronger everyday, and yesterday I gave into this. And despite the sadness, I feel more calm than I have felt in the last few weeks. The funny thing is that I recognized this feeling from before, when I was together with my previous boyfriend. That same feeling told me that I should not be with this person, but I was so afraid to let go, that I ignored it for over four years. I gues I have really learned from this, because now it only took me a few days :)

Although it is still difficult when thoughts and emotions come up, which are mainly based upon memories and future expectations I had created, I know that I will have to let go of them as well. While this might take some time (the process of grievance as you call it), I notice that I can already feel right now that 'everything is oke'. I still feel love for him, even though he is not 'officially mine' anymore. As you said: I love him, and while he chooses not to be with me anymore, that's oke :) I feel that the love I feel for him is more free now, it is not dependent upon whether or not we are offically together, its just there. Although sometimes I still loose this feeling when I'm in my mind, it does come back again, and I hope it will become stronger as I'm able to let go of my thoughts and emotions. I feel that I'm able to trust the Universe that everything is as it is supposed to be, and that I should not force anything, especially not regarding relationships. While our relationship was free and natural 7 months ago, the circumstances have changed in the meantime, which does not mean that the love and connection between us is not there anymore (I honestly believe it is), but a relationship is not what we need right now. If we are meant to be together, I trust that our paths will cross again in the future, but there is an openess about this. It has to be natural, and in this stage of our relationship, it just did not feel natural anymore.

The funny thing is that sometimes I feel very bad about the situation when I think about it (then the idea comes up that I lost my soul-mate, the one person in the world who really sees me), but when I feel my presence again, there is a love and joy underneath it, which actually encompasses this idea. Then, I feel its oke, that I can love him even though I'm not in a relationship with him... It's all the same, it does not matter :) However, I do have to say that I'm shifting in and out of this feeling every few minutes.

Another feeling that is getting stronger inside of me, is that I need to be alone right now (without a relationship), in order to focus completely on finding my own truth. I have been in a 'spiritual process' since I was seventeen years old, when I had my first (conscious) experience with presence. While I have had many different experiences afterwards (both arriving spontaneously and by practicing presence), I have not been able to liberate myself completely from my mind. But the space inside me is getting stronger and stronger, and I feel now that I should make this my first priority in my life. And the feeling I have is that I should go to Asia, since I've wanted to go for many years, but I could never go due to circumstances. I hoped I could go through the process of awakening while being in a relationship with this person - since he is somebody who is already naturally present - but I realize now that it would have been an obstacle. Although the love between us was true and sincere, I was not ready for this, because I became attached to this feeling and to the person behind it. This could happen because I'm not completely centered in my own being yet, which makes me feel alone and insecure about myself. Having a person in my life who really loved me and who told me he was going to love me forever, suddenly gave me a great sense of security. Instead of focusing completely upon my own essence and love as the greatest source of my happiness, I became dependent upon this relationship for this. 'Even though I'm not always able to feel my inner self, at least somebody really loves me'. But I know that it should not be like this. I know that the most important thing is to find my own essence, and be connected with this always, and then love can be shared with somebody else without depending on it.

[*]Now, my ego is going to speak[*] :wink:

There is only one thing that keeps coming into my mind, which is the idea that I lost somebody who I should not have lost (I know he is still in my life as a friend, but he won't be my husband or the future father of my children). I really believe that the love between us was something real, something that was just naturally there from the very first moment, without forcing anything. We both felt we recognized each other, as if we knew each other from another life-time, and we were meant to be together forever. Mooji describes this from the eleventh minute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCjQXlPs4_g Because I haven't experienced this with anybody else in my life before, I can't help to feel that he is 'my beloved', my soul-mate, which unfortunately I have lost due to the circumstances of life.

But maybe I feel like this because he was the first person in my life who was present enough in order to experience this kind of connection with? Maybe it is possible to experience a similar connection and love with somebody else, when there is a certain level of presence? Or maybe it is an illusion from the mind to believe he is my soul-mate, due to the fact that I have 'lost' him and the Universe would not have allowed this if we were meant to be together? Although I really felt so much love and energy between us when we were together, it is also true that these ideas (being each others soul-mate, knowing each other from another life-time etc.) mainly came from him, since he told me he felt this intuitively from the very first moment. However, after not seeing each other for 7 months and meeting somebody else in the last month, he was able to end our relationship pretty easily. Maybe the idea that we were soul-mates was an illusion from his side, which I started to believe as well due to the intensity of his belief. He believes that what we had 7 months ago was something real, but due to the distance between us, it diminished. He says that 'love forever' is something you need to irrigate, like a garden of flowers. And because we were not able to do this due to the distance between us, it did not work out. However, if this is true, than you could say that maybe we were not meant to be together, because otherwise the Universe would not have allowed these circumstances to come between us (the distance + him meeting somebody else).

I know that these doubts and insecurities I described in the last two paragraphs come from my mind, because when I focus upon the feeling of presence I can feel that 'all is oke'. However, I just notice that these thoughts keep popping up and continue to bring me emotional pain, which makes me feel that maybe I should have done something to prevent this from happening. Maybe I should have tried to go earlier to his country, or maybe I should have taken a holiday in the meantime. At the same time, I feel a strong need and willingness to trust the Universe that all is as it should be, and that, if we are meant to be together, this will happen at the right moment without forcing anything. Because I do really feel that at this moment I'm not ready to be in a relationship with him, but at the same time, I cannot imagine somebody else to be the father of my children, which gives me the idea that maybe one day we will meet again. I feel that we both need to mature more in our own spirituality, in order to enjoy the love between us without getting attached or creating stories around it (because we both did this). Or is this idea the last attempt of the ego in order to not let go?
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby starting » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:08 pm

Hi Melkmeisje,

I can tell you that I know how you feel...

I watched the vídeo and I also would like to know if we choose or recognize love. As Mooji explains, the true love should be recognized and not choosed.
How to know if we are recognizing the love or choosing to love someone?
“Your life is in transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Something may be saying: `Where is my leaf?’ Don't fear. Trust. All is well. How auspicious that Grace has picked you up like this. Hold this gratitude inside your heart” ~ Mooji
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby Melkmeisje » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:28 pm

starting wrote:Hi Melkmeisje,

I can tell you that I know how you feel...

I watched the vídeo and I also would like to know if we choose or recognize love. As Mooji explains, the true love should be recognized and not choosed.
How to know if we are recognizing the love or choosing to love someone?


Thank you for your reply :) And I'm sorry to hear you know how I feel, although maybe it's just part of our learning and actually a blessing in disguise :)

I really thought that we recognized each other when we met 7 months ago. From the first moment I saw him, something happened to me, while I was not even aware of this mentally. I felt a certain belonging/pertenence to him, even though I had a boyfriend at home (for more than 4 years) and he was with another girl at that moment. But we just pulled towards each other naturally, and after a week, it was obvious that there was something between us. I did try to ignore my feelings for a few weeks, because I was still in another relationship at that time, but after a while I could not deny it any longer. Like it was a natural force that I could not stop by myself. I actually had to make an effort in order to keep away from him. Maybe it was just a very strong physical attraction between us, but at the same time it felt like something much more, it was not only physical. When he looked at me, I felt he looked directly at my soul, and we did not need many words in order to understand each other. And although it took me some time to give in to this feeling, he was convinced about us from the very first moment. He said he just knew intuitively that I was the one for him. He is a person who is already naturally present and generally bases his decisions upon his intuition.

However, after meeting somebody else, he has decided to continue with her, even though he acknowledges that he does not feel the same about her as he felt with me 7 months ago. He also feels very strongly about his friend, but he says the feeling is different, and he is not sure right now if she is going to be with him forever. But still, he feels he needs to find out what it means. Although I cannot really understand this decision with my mind (he was 100% sure about us from the very first moment, which he felt intuitively), at the same time I feel a great amount of peace about the situation. Even though I still feel the same about him, and I honestly believe that the love and connection between us is just naturally there, the feeling that we should not be in a relationship right now just feels very right. I really feel I need to focus upon my spiritual process right now and live in Asia for a while, which I could not do if I would live with him in his country. However, I do really feel strongly about him, and that is why I'm wondering if maybe in the future our paths will cross again. But there is an openess about it. I just love him, even though we are not officially together.

So maybe true love is something you recognize, but this does not necessarily mean that you choose to be together forever. Even though the love remains.
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby thomas2 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:48 pm

I read it all, thank you all for sharing :).

I realize that maybe I should not be posting this cause it seems a little off topic, but that really strikes me every time I see it, and i guess if it's correct it can help a little :). I'm modestly trying to improve my understanding, hoping it can help at the same time, but be aware that I'm far from as enlightened as any of the other posters, and if I might be clumsy I do not want to offend anyone :).

-> Isn't the idea than things can be "meant to be", an attempt from the ego to insure us that a sort of "perfection" is waiting for us in the future, no matter what we do ?
I mean, that's kind of a "belief" that I don't see people to have because of logical reasons, but more out of a need from the ego to believe that "finally, everything will be all right, and everything that should be, will be". I feel it is a powerful belief that can have both pros and cons, pros being mostly that it opens the way to acceptance of past (griefs, mistakes, disappointments, "If only"s...), and trust in life and future in general, cons being that on the ego level you could tend to rely on this perceived "external magic" for, "one day in the future", giving your ego what it is waiting for...Thus partly putting you in a state of passively waiting for the universe to give you what you want, like a background mode running, which would prevent you from 100% living in the present...
The way I see it, we don't need to have such a belief for acceptance. Basically understanding on a deep level that acceptance and presence is all we need for moving beyond past suffering and to be at peace can be enough, and doesn't come with any cons.
But I know, beliefs are a very personal question and we're not supposed to try to influence each other's beliefs. I know that's the accepted view, but it doesn't seem right to me. I didn't plan to go this far actually. Feel free to discuss and explain me why it may be a mistake on my part :), and please believe that I have no bad faith in doing it. Plus I'm really not sure of what I'm writing here.

Unless you are saying it as a "If it's meant to be, I guess I will naturally tend to finally do what it takes for having it !". Then all the above is not applying to your experience. But the way I hear it, it really seems like you said, that it might just be your ego's way to hold on to that desire. It might be of little impact, but being aware that it has one might help :).

I'll just say almost "common ET sense", that going for more and more presence as you intend to, cannot be a mistake.


Wish you all the best :)

Thanks
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:39 am

Thomas2 said: -> Isn't the idea than things can be "meant to be", an attempt from the ego to insure us that a sort of "perfection" is waiting for us in the future, no matter what we do ?

If something 'is', then it is - how can it not be what it is?

I think it was an ET quote that the answer to 'how do I know that what is happening is meant to be happening?' Is because it is what you are experiencing now.


So it's not 'meant to be' projecting outside of now. Everything we experience, 'now'.
If we are resisting the experience, saying it 'shouldn't be happening', is just creating the resistance to 'what is', in this moment.


If I am angry, sad, happy, devastated, over-joyed - --- whatever in this moment there is no thing that says it's right or wrong, except my 'thoughts', my 'beliefs' about it. It just is, whatever it is.

Basically understanding on a deep level that acceptance and presence is all we need for moving beyond past suffering and to be at peace can be enough, and doesn't come with any cons.

hmmm... in the 'journey' of understanding on a deep level there can be many 'cons' along the way--- we con ourselves and we allow others to con us too.

A common 'con' about peace, acceptance and presence might be that it 'should' feel different to how it actually feels. If one is accepting sadness, it doesn't take away the feeling of sadness. If one is accepting anger, it doesn't take away the feeling of anger until the anger is resolved. It's facing, feeling, being 'in' whatever arises, not negating what arises.

Another 'con' might be abdication of our true response 'ability' - just sit on a mountain and do nothing, it's all peaceful, accepting and present.... okay, no choice is wrong.... who's taking out the garbage? Living and relating is messy business!!

Another might be relinquishing our 'power' - I accept it because I can't do anything about it .... without actually embracing & having the courage to do what can be done. Often 'can't' is erroneously substituting 'I can not' for what in pure honesty would be 'I choose not to' - often for fear-filled not love fuelled reasons. And this is a common 'con' that we do to ourselves in the name of having 'peace' and 'acceptance', rather than being in peace and acceptance.

We can be 'conned' that acceptance is passive, and it is anything but passive. It is the beginning of 'aware doing', right before pouring joy into whatever we are doing in this moment (en-joy-ment) and enthusiasm knowing we are accepting some elements fully, still pouring joy into what we can and flying!

The other side where 'meant to be' is made in ego, is not in this moment, and there will be no true powerful, embracing peace in what is, no acceptance, flowing to joy & enthusiasm. They are 'different'.

One lives what is, without limitation, without need, without condition (no I'll be happy when....), the other is just thoughts about what is.

(therefore no thing can ever 'really' be 'off topic' :wink: It is what it is.)

Does that make sense how it might get confused?
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby thomas2 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:07 am

it's about clear :)
Still, my impression is that, whenever we feel the need to discuss whether or not something is meant to be, or even express that it is, that comes from the ego. The words feel like a romantic mistake, like "destiny".
Or maybe I understand them wrong. It seems to say that something happening in the present either has been "planned" before, or "couldn't have been different". Or something like this... Isn't it what it means ?
I don't see how "meant to be" can be applied to the present, it seems heavily time related. Either something is or it isn't, saying it'd be meant to be is an interpretation of the mind.
Well once again this is kinda related to beliefs, and even if Eckhart's teachings really work for me on a practical level, I tend to be very Cartesian, which makes me see the concept of something that could be "meant to be" as a romantic view of the world (IE : the people on earth would be meant to awaken). I believe the universe is quite more random and pointless than today's spirituality likes to say, which doesn't mean it can't feel incredibly wonderful and magic.
IE the universe doesn't make things so that they evolve nicely to fit the world (meant to be), instead things evolve quite randomly, and only those who by chance evolve in a useful way keep surviving (not meant to be). Forgive my poor scientific explanation :D

For sure I totally understand how it can be nice to believe it's all meant to be, and whenever I encounter this philosophy I feel divided between on one hand letting people hold to their nice easy beliefs cause I believe happiness is what counts, and on the other hand feeling that wrong belief won't help forever and you're better to merge your beliefs with reality (before you're forced to do so by hitting a reality wall/suffering?)...
Well it feels a little like stealing OP's thread, maybe we should start another topic if we want to go ahead...:)
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Re: Does true love exist, and will it persist?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:47 am

The words feel like a romantic mistake, like "destiny".

Yes!!!
I just posted a quote from ET in another thread and he used the word 'destiny' .. something about 'fulfilling your destiny' and it 'irked' 'niggled' my arising awareness wanted to clarify it, but it would have interrupted the flow of the quote.

acckk!!

:wink:

Or maybe I understand them wrong. It seems to say that something happening in the present either has been "planned" before, or "couldn't have been different". Or something like this... Isn't it what it means ?
I don't see how "meant to be" can be applied to the present, it seems heavily time related. Either something is or it isn't, saying it'd be meant to be is an interpretation of the mind.


I see it as natural consequences unfolding, not 'planned' as in set in stone, or as 'pre-arranged', but arising fluidly, based on individual responses to 'stuff' and all interacting like threads on a spider web. The spider web is unlimited in potential, no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience. In relativity, it couldn't have been different based on the choices made. Had other choices been made it would have been different, but it cannot be different to what it is.

If you choose to go down 'this path' then it naturally leads to a different perspective of 'here'. If you go down another path it just follows a different path. But wherever you are, you are always 'here'.

IE the universe doesn't make things so that they evolve nicely to fit the world (meant to be), instead things evolve quite randomly, and only those who by chance evolve in a useful way keep surviving (not meant to be). Forgive my poor scientific explanation :D

:lol: Far be it for me to criticise anyone's scientific explanations - I got kicked out of science in the first year of high school ...hilariously, for asking the 'wrong' questions - the ones that couldn't be answered based on the 'premises' of science!!

It is what it is, and there is much peace to be had in accepting it.

I like your 'random' evolution theory, it sits well with me too. I see creation and its evolution as unlimited potential. Truly, no choice is wrong it just (delivers) a different experience. For me all of creation is equilibrium in eternal motion & potentiality. There is no thing that is outside of creation or the natural evolutionary effects. All is embraced within it.

Maybe saying 'it is what it is', is a little different in energetic resonance, it's immediate, it's here, it's now.

But I don't see it as 'pointless' - how can any thing be not what it is?
If we are at 'this junction' on the spider webs of potential, then being at that junction is the 'point', right here, right now.

The universe or creation doesn't care how we got here, or where we go from here - (no choice is wrong) creation will always accommodate and be in equilibrium - balancing all the parts of itself. To not do so would be to create its own destruction in entirety.

(she says with no scientific explanation :wink: )
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