Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Talk about relationships in the context of Spiritual Enlightenment

Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby 51sth » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:22 pm

The headline is probably little provocative because I don't feel I suffer much or sometimes at all if someone leaves me in a way or another. The reason for searching for right mindsets is that I have experienced certain ways of thinking very beneficial for enjoying life. In the end I see that when there is no contradictory in the ways things are I am happy and joyful. I have also noticed that we people have some crazy and really contradictory believes which lessen our ability to be in the present moment or should I say happy. So I am very interested to see and find is there something which I haven't fully "understood" so that I don't feel the contradictory part, but that I could stay in the present moment. One of these things which I have been thinking is that how come one could not leave you? This is a bit weird question I think, but this is just a point where to begin the journey to dissolve the thoughts. So once again here is my question: How come no one cannot leave you in away you feel abandoned? Second question which I would like to know after this is do you still feel abandoned if someone leaves you?
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby ekidhardt » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:35 pm

well well...

I think you're actually missing quite a bit, tons in fact.

" In the end I see that when there is no contradictory in the ways things are I am happy and joyful. '

This is basically the core operation of passive aggression. If one does not have any conflict or dissonance--then all is well! --if you don't get challenged, then..all is good! So then, the logic must be that if you exclude people who aren't in agreement with your way of thinking--then you'll be happy! perfect!--by the way, present does not equal happy.

Except, yeah it doesn't make much sense.

You're clearly identified with your own mindset. You think your beliefs are correct, and others are wrong. You don't have enough ego-strength (self confidence) to tolerate differing ways of thinking.

And I would say, you're not as happy as you claim. You just identify with the notion of being happy if you can isolate yourself with your own mind and those who support it. In psychology it's called 'egosyntonic'--those things which support how you want to see yourself.

Being present is also the inclusion of non-judgement and acceptance of what is. You don't do those things. Instead you judge, diminish, and separate yourself. You don't see and create authentic bonds through commonality, but instead you nurture select relationships through exclusion an division. This is the complete opposite of Tolle's teachings.

You've clearly missed the core of Tolle philosophy, and I think you probably have a certain level of narcissism. You're searching for the 'right' mindset? Psst, there is no right mindset. Nor wrong either.

You don't suffer much or at all when someone leaves you?

Well, if you believe you are superior to another, then there is no loss is there right? You've lost something of little value--thus, no loss.

I'm going to guess that you're on here fishing for unconscious reinforcement for your own superiority, but at the same time, you recognize there is an issue with it, which is why you're actually here (but you're not aware of that). Your egoic self is looking for reinforcement, to *invalidate* a tiny little piece of you that is saying 'wait, why are people leaving me? is it possibly me that is the issue?"--yet that little piece of you is actually your authentic self trying to poke through.

I see also that you intellectualize and rationalize your circumstances, which are defense mechanisms of the ego to preserve itself. More evidence of what I asserted above.


"How come no one cannot leave you in away you feel abandoned? "

You're asking why you don't feel abandoned, you're not actually interested in the experience of others. The reason you don't feel abandoned is because you are highly unconscious, and you don't realize it. Unfortunately, you're probably a smart enough person to rationalize your own correctness, so you effectively convince yourself.

And the second part of your question, if someone leaves me

Again, you're not actually here to get those questions answered, but to reinforce your own sense of superiority.

So, instead, why don't you actually ask some questions :)

-e
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby Andreas » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:51 pm

Wow, awesome reply, ekidhardt! I don't know if it is what is going on with the original poster and I'm surely not the right person to judge that... but, in any case, you just helped me understand some important things I did not realize before - so let me take that moment to thank you!
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:09 pm

Interesting reply eki,

I'm not sure if you're right in your assessment of the OP or not.

Regardless, I do see very often in the spiritual community (especially since finding this website a few years back) that there are some who miss the point of relationships and relating.

Often one will believe they have discovered the Self (which I too did initially) and think they are immune to life. I personally felt no need to wrap myself up in meaningless relationships when relationships only lead to heartbreak and suffering.

Of course this was my own limited view at the time. Passive aggressive indeed. I'm learning more and more about embracing that which is different than me. Relationships of all kinds are about growth and learning about who we are.....in relation to another. Relationships are the most valuable tool we have here and they are our most valuable asset in our growth. Growth in the sense of going from passive/aggressive manipulative beings to our true nature as Beings of Love and Light. To the understanding that all perspectives are of value to the whole. To the understanding that each of us is conditioned differently.

I think when you start to widen your view and see life from a different grander perspective, relationships of all kinds will serve you better. 'Conversations with God' has been a great asset for me.

In response to the initial Op's question of 'do you still feel abandoned after someone leaves you'. Abandoned is a strong word that implies a personal assault on you. Its implications are that the other person who left you, did something wrong, in that they 'abandoned you'. I would word it a bit differently. While, feeling 'sad' about someone leaving is perfectly understandable. Especially if you shared a bond with that person. But, in a deeper sense, all relationships serve their purpose for the time that they exist. It's only our belief that relationships 'should perhaps never end' which might keep us in the feelings of 'abandonment' that something is 'wrong' when a relationship ends. People grow apart and people die. Take what you will from each situation and see yourself in relation to that person or thing.

In the end, all is good.
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby 51sth » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:40 pm

ekidhardt wrote:well well...

I think you're actually missing quite a bit, tons in fact.

" In the end I see that when there is no contradictory in the ways things are I am happy and joyful. '

This is basically the core operation of passive aggression. If one does not have any conflict or dissonance--then all is well! --if you don't get challenged, then..all is good! So then, the logic must be that if you exclude people who aren't in agreement with your way of thinking--then you'll be happy! perfect!--by the way, present does not equal happy.

Except, yeah it doesn't make much sense.

You're clearly identified with your own mindset. You think your beliefs are correct, and others are wrong. You don't have enough ego-strength (self confidence) to tolerate differing ways of thinking.

And I would say, you're not as happy as you claim. You just identify with the notion of being happy if you can isolate yourself with your own mind and those who support it. In psychology it's called 'egosyntonic'--those things which support how you want to see yourself.

Being present is also the inclusion of non-judgement and acceptance of what is. You don't do those things. Instead you judge, diminish, and separate yourself. You don't see and create authentic bonds through commonality, but instead you nurture select relationships through exclusion an division. This is the complete opposite of Tolle's teachings.

You've clearly missed the core of Tolle philosophy, and I think you probably have a certain level of narcissism. You're searching for the 'right' mindset? Psst, there is no right mindset. Nor wrong either.

You don't suffer much or at all when someone leaves you?

Well, if you believe you are superior to another, then there is no loss is there right? You've lost something of little value--thus, no loss.

I'm going to guess that you're on here fishing for unconscious reinforcement for your own superiority, but at the same time, you recognize there is an issue with it, which is why you're actually here (but you're not aware of that). Your egoic self is looking for reinforcement, to *invalidate* a tiny little piece of you that is saying 'wait, why are people leaving me? is it possibly me that is the issue?"--yet that little piece of you is actually your authentic self trying to poke through.

I see also that you intellectualize and rationalize your circumstances, which are defense mechanisms of the ego to preserve itself. More evidence of what I asserted above.


"How come no one cannot leave you in away you feel abandoned? "

You're asking why you don't feel abandoned, you're not actually interested in the experience of others. The reason you don't feel abandoned is because you are highly unconscious, and you don't realize it. Unfortunately, you're probably a smart enough person to rationalize your own correctness, so you effectively convince yourself.

And the second part of your question, if someone leaves me

Again, you're not actually here to get those questions answered, but to reinforce your own sense of superiority.

So, instead, why don't you actually ask some questions :)

-e


Well this was interesting reply, thank you for it.

"I think you're actually missing quite a bit, tons in fact."

I was thinking this myself later on. I have felt pain in earlier relationships so I was finding a way to not feel pain again. I read so many philoshophies and hide myself to literature and ideas. Suffering was to me "a pure" choise, but infact I do feel pain and when I do it is easier to accept it and do what I can if I can instead of denying it as I did for a some time. There was couple of relationships that in the moment of crisis I didn't feel any suffering, but it was only because I wouldn't let myself be vulnerable because I was avoiding pain.

The reason for my suffering has become clearer to me and it lead to my past when I felt I was emotionally abused for years, sometimes physically. Punished for things that wasn't wrong and I didn't know I was doing wrong etc. I thought I had already handled this issue but I surely didn't and i guess it is still living in me. The consciousness about this has helped, but I feel suspicious because I have thought this before too. I like to believe that the suffering in me is a message that says there is more to discover, maybe more "not to resist".

"This is basically the core operation of passive aggression. If one does not have any conflict or dissonance--then all is well! --if you don't get challenged, then..all is good! So then, the logic must be that if you exclude people who aren't in agreement with your way of thinking--then you'll be happy! perfect!--by the way, present does not equal happy."

This is true. I have had and probably still have hard time with people that aren't in the same page with me (don't know, I like to keep myself open to change this way that I don't predict the future). This passive aggression have persisted in me because I haven't been conscious that I am constantly been alert for abusive behavior. Conflicts have felt so bad to me that I have seen them where there haven't been any and I have created them and avoided them. Avoided them so much that I have closed my self. I know this because I have had the opportunity to look back and see my behavior as it really was and it has been distorted way of looking things from perspective of fear, fear that someone will abuse and control me.

I have learned boundaries now and understood that my well being is essential for others to be well too around me, but this is a large subject and I won't go to it any deeper now.

"You're clearly identified with your own mindset. You think your beliefs are correct, and others are wrong. You don't have enough ego-strength (self confidence) to tolerate differing ways of thinking. "

Well this is a harsh way of saying things, but I see you say it based on my post, not that you really know me even when this seems to me like you seem to do so. But to the point.. when someone has disagreed with me when it comes to important things to me, like some values, I have felt threatened. The reason for this is my fear that other is trying to control me and is trying to abuse me. This was the early sign in my childhood which I learned to see beforehand. My coping in the situation was that I fought and run away, even lost my memory sometimes after the conflict. In fact I couldn't truly run away because of my poor ways of handling that kind of situations; I was a child and didn't know better (now I know or at lest like to think so and learn to cope better).

"And I would say, you're not as happy as you claim. You just identify with the notion of being happy if you can isolate yourself with your own mind and those who support it. In psychology it's called 'egosyntonic'--those things which support how you want to see yourself."

I must say that I didn't read my earlier post when I read yours, because I just don't feel it in me; the right mindset thinking. It brings a bit of shame to me so I don't want to. So anyway, you are probably right that I am not as happy as I claimed in that post.

I have had this problem that I have been thinking true happiness to be some sort of feeling. I don't see it as that anymore. I see it as this awareness that witnesses all the feelings. This has helped me to experience myself more whole and it has made much more sense to the quaestion that "Would you rather be good, bad or whole?" Wholeness seems to be accepting myself with all my flaws no matter what common believes are. This feels like surrendering to me.

"You've clearly missed the core of Tolle philosophy, and I think you probably have a certain level of narcissism. You're searching for the 'right' mindset? Psst, there is no right mindset. Nor wrong either."

Well yes, you are right, I think. This is kind of weird to me how I don't feel threatened by what you say. Later in my life I would have felt that and probably would have fought and again run away. I just don't want to do that again and why should I, you are right.

"You don't suffer much or at all when someone leaves you?"

Oh I do if I have been vulnerable, but I haven't lately because of my fears. But I think I am starting to see this what vulnerability is really about. I want to believe it is opening my heart to love.

"Well, if you believe you are superior to another, then there is no loss is there right? You've lost something of little value--thus, no loss."


I can't believe I have said that I am superior to anyone (still not reading my earlier post) and it is hard for me to grasp the logic in your question. If I am 100 gold coins of worth and another is less, lets say 10 gold coins, then what I would lose is not 10 gold coins. It wouldn't be about the loss it would be "not to get enough" because one cannot see that it is enough. Not the best example but well..

"I'm going to guess that you're on here fishing for unconscious reinforcement for your own superiority, but at the same time, you recognize there is an issue with it, which is why you're actually here (but you're not aware of that). Your egoic self is looking for reinforcement, to *invalidate* a tiny little piece of you that is saying 'wait, why are people leaving me? is it possibly me that is the issue?"--yet that little piece of you is actually your authentic self trying to poke through."

Well I try my best. BTW I am not trying to be martyr here! That is another issue that I have been gone through earlier in life. I don't feel sorry for myself, I don't find any bitterness towards my abuser in childhood. I just have or had (don't know) this automatic response to fear when anything resembels abusive and controlling behavior. I guess there is a need for disassociations.

My egoic self have been seeking validation for it to be right. The reason for validation is in me that I am now exploring. It seems that when I try to get closer of being vulnerable I seem to awaken the fear in me and the presence is hard to attain. I then become blind.

"I see also that you intellectualize and rationalize your circumstances, which are defense mechanisms of the ego to preserve itself. More evidence of what I asserted above.

Yes.

"You're asking why you don't feel abandoned, you're not actually interested in the experience of others. The reason you don't feel abandoned is because you are highly unconscious, and you don't realize it. Unfortunately, you're probably a smart enough person to rationalize your own correctness, so you effectively convince yourself. "

This has been true. Now I feel that this is changing, but I still seem to fear and I even fear this fear in me. I fear that it ruins the opening of my heart.

Thanks again for your reply, it came just the right time for me.
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby 51sth » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:42 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Interesting reply eki,

I'm not sure if you're right in your assessment of the OP or not.

Regardless, I do see very often in the spiritual community (especially since finding this website a few years back) that there are some who miss the point of relationships and relating.

Often one will believe they have discovered the Self (which I too did initially) and think they are immune to life. I personally felt no need to wrap myself up in meaningless relationships when relationships only lead to heartbreak and suffering.

Of course this was my own limited view at the time. Passive aggressive indeed. I'm learning more and more about embracing that which is different than me. Relationships of all kinds are about growth and learning about who we are.....in relation to another. Relationships are the most valuable tool we have here and they are our most valuable asset in our growth. Growth in the sense of going from passive/aggressive manipulative beings to our true nature as Beings of Love and Light. To the understanding that all perspectives are of value to the whole. To the understanding that each of us is conditioned differently.

I think when you start to widen your view and see life from a different grander perspective, relationships of all kinds will serve you better. 'Conversations with God' has been a great asset for me.

In response to the initial Op's question of 'do you still feel abandoned after someone leaves you'. Abandoned is a strong word that implies a personal assault on you. Its implications are that the other person who left you, did something wrong, in that they 'abandoned you'. I would word it a bit differently. While, feeling 'sad' about someone leaving is perfectly understandable. Especially if you shared a bond with that person. But, in a deeper sense, all relationships serve their purpose for the time that they exist. It's only our belief that relationships 'should perhaps never end' which might keep us in the feelings of 'abandonment' that something is 'wrong' when a relationship ends. People grow apart and people die. Take what you will from each situation and see yourself in relation to that person or thing.

In the end, all is good.


You had a very good points here. Especially the sorrow versus abandonment was revealing. Thanks.
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby randomguy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:19 pm

So once again here is my question: How come no one cannot leave you in away you feel abandoned?

Attachment. Have you asked if you really want someone around if they want to go? Would you hold them there if it is not what they want? Or deep down is the respect/love deep enough that in this matter you want what they want even it is that they want to go?

Second question which I would like to know after this is do you still feel abandoned if someone leaves you?

What is abandonment but a disagreement with reality? Is it not a comparison of actually 'what is' to an attachment to how it is wanted to be? Does happiness truly depend upon other people? Or for another angle, by loving 'what is'.

I then become blind

This is just not possible. The fact that you observe the blindness means there is crystal clear awareness of the experience of blindness. This primary awareness is closer to your true nature than 'the one who is thought to be blind'. The spectrum of personal experience merely appears to what you truly are.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby ekidhardt » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:47 am

51sth,

Great reply, I very much like the non-defensive authenticity of it. Super honest too.


As consciousness is a spectrum, a long path, we all are on the same walk--but at different points. I personally relate to some of it.


" I like to believe that the suffering in me is a message that says there is more to discover, maybe more "not to resist"."

This is spot on.

One of my favorite quotes from Tolle is

"If you had not suffered as you have, there would be no depth to you as a human being, no humility, no compassion. You would not be reading this now. Suffering cracks open the shell of ego, and then comes a point when it has served its purpose. Suffering is necessary until you realize it is unnecessary."


". I have had and probably still have hard time with people that aren't in the same page with me"


Here's why: Your sense of self, (let's say self esteem) is constructed with a set of view points in life and your attachment to them. The reason people with different view points feel threatening, is because you're so identified with your position, your perspective on something, that a different perspective makes you self-doubt---and if your self worth is built upon the notion that your beliefs must be true, or right---then what happens to your self worth when someone else says they're possibly not true? or wrong?

What happens, is that it FEELS like you are being attacked personally. It feels like YOU are being diminished. If you ARE your thoughts, then the removal of your thoughts, means YOU are being erased. And so you feel a need to withdraw to avoid pain, or react defensively, as though you were under attack.

With Tolle material, he very much espouses the notion that 'you are not your mind'--you are not the stances that you take on things.

So the idea is that you should separate YOU (who you are)--from the content of what you think. Once you separate the two, then the "you" will never be under attack--only the perspective that the 'you' is saying. So for example I can say "the patriots are the best football team"--and someone says "no, the Chargers are!"---well, I understand that that's ok because the success of the patriots has no actual bearing on my life. So they can be great, or terrible---and I can still make that claim, but also endure the notion that maybe the Chargers actually are a better team. Make sense?

Conflicts have felt so bad to me that I have seen them where there haven't been any and I have created them and avoided them.


Separate your own value from what you believe, and you will never feel threatened by another perspective. And with that, basically all conflict will dissolve. What you'll see is that, you will no longer have to sort of control how you react to being challenged---you'll end up not reacting in the first place. That, actually, there is no challenge.


"Well this is a harsh way of saying things, but I see you say it based on my post, not that you really know me even when this seems to me like you seem to do so."


I don't need to spend much, or any time with you to know you--truth is that I know human nature really well. It's not so much 'you' as it is 'everyone'. People in general are fairly predictable--put in a certain input, and a certain output will occur. Because of the ego's need for individuality (separation) people almost always want to be special snowflakes, that is to say, unique--so accepting the notion that people are predictable usually doesn't go over very well. And harsh? Maybe, maybe not :)

I must say that I didn't read my earlier post when I read yours, because I just don't feel it in me; the right mindset thinking. It brings a bit of shame to me so I don't want to


There's a good amount of value in shame. And at the same time, there is nothing to be ashamed of. It's okay to accept that you didn't like how you have been in the past. Don't blame yourself for something you were unaware of, but are now aware of.

"I have had this problem that I have been thinking true happiness to be some sort of feeling. I don't see it as that anymore. I see it as this awareness that witnesses all the feelings."


I like this.

"Well yes, you are right, I think. This is kind of weird to me how I don't feel threatened by what you say. Later in my life I would have felt that and probably would have fought and again run away. I just don't want to do that again and why should I, you are right."


this is great. Most people tend to respond very defensively as they are attached to their viewpoints. You said earlier that you tend to run from challenges--but I was very challenging in a lot of what I mentioned, and you didn't run away. Change huh?


"I can't believe I have said that I am superior to anyone (still not reading my earlier post) and it is hard for me to grasp the logic in your question. "


You didn't. But if you won't read the original post, then I can make up anything I want! woohoo! ---like, when you said that you were going to make a large monetary donation to the uhh..'ekidhardt' fund...for uhh...

You didn't say you were superior to anyway, for sure. But this is general human behavior. Given what you mentioned earlier, this is a protective shell for you so as to avoid pain. If you don't let someone close to you, you will not experience loss upon their departure. (more or less).

The way you mentioned in the post you are avoiding reading (go read it)---gave me the strong impression that you dismiss people almost whimsically from your life, and they don't matter if they don't have that 'right' mindset. This is why I would mention superiority, and narcissism--in both of those cases, they diminish other people to the point where the excision of them, has no impact.


"My egoic self have been seeking validation for it to be right. The reason for validation is in me that I am now exploring. It seems that when I try to get closer of being vulnerable I seem to awaken the fear in me and the presence is hard to attain. I then become blind."


This is a very good self-reflection.


"Now I feel that this is changing, but I still seem to fear and I even fear this fear in me. I fear that it ruins the opening of my heart."


Understandably, your history has made you wary. But the fear and anxiety are far worse than what reality is--funny timing, but just yesterday, I was talking with a friend. She's a Psychotherapist--and she said something exactly along the same vein. She was talking about our interactions.

She told me,
"Underneath the nakedness and nervousness that, your seeing and my failed attempts to hide in it evokes, there is a huge well of comfort that I experience in me, with you".

Interesting right? My response to her,

"I wish people could see like you do, that the illusory concept of control and anxiety that stems from the perceived loss of it--is in itself far worse than letting the fear occur, letting control fail. And in that place which is often so desperately feared and avoided--sits comfort."


Anyway! You have high self reflection skills, a good level of authenticity, and good ego-strength in order to endure some of what I said. All this is excellent and so my crystal ball is indicating that you have a good future in store! :D

-e
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby 51sth » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:35 pm

So the idea is that you should separate YOU (who you are)--from the content of what you think. Once you separate the two, then the "you" will never be under attack--only the perspective that the 'you' is saying.


So how do I do this or develop this? It feels so hard. I have been depressed couple of days now because I understood how much the fear of losing control has controlled my life and I fear to let that awareness go. It just keeps opening me more and more and I am afraid not to stay alert about that fear because I am afraid I would return unconscious. I think I intellectually know that when something has been brought to light it is somewhat impossible to return to the old ways of seeing, but still I fear it.

In the morning I wake up. My morning time is optimal; everything that I do in the morning has been calculated. Not consciously, but with time to suit my feelings; to escape the possibility that my fears would come true. I brush my teeth, I do it fast because it has no real value to me in the "now". I stop, I start doing it slower just to notice that there is some imaginary rush which causes me to stress. I put my clothes on, take a shit and start to doubt myself at the door "do I have everything with me... keys.. wallet.." and little moment later I walk to my kitchen just to check if the coffee maker is on (if I used it). I feel the hurry and believe I am being late. I leave my apartment and walk fast just to notice again that I am impatient so I slow my pace again and remind me that if I get late from my bus there will come another and I don't even have specific work schedule; it's all in my mind. This has been going on about a month, but it all starts all over again: I notice my impatience which causes me to hurry and then I slow down.. again and again, not because it is working so much towards "enlightenment", but because it is easier to walk than run.

My realisation started to happen fast when I wanted my spouse to do the dishes because I had done them three times in a row. We fought about the subject and couple days later I started to look the insanity of it. Don't get me wrong, it is perfectly ok to say to another that what you would like and why, but when the another won't do it and you still wont accept, that is a problem. So I wondered why I felt so threatened in that situation. I traced it to my fear of being controlled by someone (because of my history). My spouse was, in my head, trying to control me because she wouldn't want to do simple tasks, she was not being equal in my eyes and I was becoming the "victim". We talked and I understood her well, but what I didn't understand was my reaction which lead me to try to control her. So this opened me up the realisation that I truly have (and guess I still do) fear that someone is controlling me and trying to abuse me that way. This seems so primary fear to me. I started to wonder why I hurry in the mornings and the reason is that that is how I minimize the risk that someone could abuse me; my co-workers wouldn't come to even close to conflict if I wouldn't be late (at last in my head). When I run to the bus, when I check my coffee maker, when I brush my teeth in a hurry.. I am avoiding conflict. Being more specific: I am avoiding the risk that someone could control and abuse me.

What?! Every stressful situation has lead to this fear in me that I have found out in couple of days. I have tried some drugs in my past and alcohol has been reliever in the weekends. Reliever for the stress caused by the fear that someone could control and therefore abuse me.

At work (or in the school when I was younger) I defend the weak because I know how much that suffering hurts. I fear that if I wont interrupt this could someday happen to me too in this same environment, so it is easier to act now when I am not the "victim". So I am no hero, I am a coward, even when it might seem otherwise.

I was in a relationship for a six years with a person who hated conflict, so we didn't fight. It was shallow and the intimacy didn't build up. It was easy, I still love him my own way. I learned a lot from her, but the time came when I wanted more and didn't even know what that was. I had a hunch, I guess I was right.. I did want to grow, but didn't have no clue how. Other relationships have "failed" because my fear of being controlled and abused has been so much that I have left or made it impossible to the other to stay. This fear basically have been controlling my relationships.

It is paradoxical that I fear that someone would control and abuse me and when I go blind to this fear I start to control and abuse others, blaming for them for doing it to me. My view is distorted at those moments.

Reading is one more way of control for me; I read psychology/philosophy because it gives me tools (in my mind) to dealing with people. I therefore control myself and others when I know their psychology or have waterproof philosophies in my head. So the fear is here too.

There is only a small moments in my days, or actions which does not relate to my fear. Presence is hard.

So there is much much more of these same realisations related to this fear of mine which have come to my understanding within just a couple of days from now. Even sometimes when I sit in the bus and someone sits beside me touching me accidentally. It feels exhausting to notice this fear in those moments and there it is, not leaving me but now I am aware.. feels like I am even too aware.

What is behind of this fear of being controlled and abused? Could there be something more? Fear of death? I cant seem to grasp it..

Separate your own value from what you believe, and you will never feel threatened by another perspective.


How? I think I really have missed Eckharts teachings, maybe reading again with this new insight could help. First time when I read Power of Now I just didn't get it at all. Couple years later I did get some.
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby ekidhardt » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:34 pm

51sth,

You get a 10/10 for self-reflection and astute observations. Super super good.

"What is behind of this fear of being controlled and abused? Could there be something more?"

For sure. I'll get it to.

"So how do I do this or develop this? It feels so hard."

It is hard. I think the first step is to recognize your own automatic reactions to things where people disagree with you. You have to recognize those reactions as they begin---you can recognize them after the fact as well. Remember, that fear is an illusion for the most part. You won't return to being unconscious, don't worry. Consciousness is usually a one way door--you can relapse into things, but once you're conscious about something--it's hard to not see it after that (it's hard to see everyone who drives the same car as you do for example)

I would suggest to expose yourself intentionally (condition yourself) to the things which you fear. You'll see, absolutely, that the fear will dissipate.

"his has been going on about a month, but it all starts all over again: I notice my impatience which causes me to hurry and then I slow down.. again and again, not because it is working so much towards "enlightenment", but because it is easier to walk than run. "

And look, you're already noticing things. That's how it all starts. You have to notice something, and then the next step is taking some action. You're shifting unconscious behavior to conscious behavior. It might not feel like progress, but it's progress.

It sounds like you're in a chaotic stage---the stage where you're internally conflicted because your conscious and unconscious are colliding. That's pretty normal for everyone as those two collide. I ran into the same circumstance with dishes hah :)

"So I wondered why I felt so threatened in that situation. I traced it to my fear of being controlled by someone (because of my history). My spouse was, in my head, trying to control me because she wouldn't want to do simple tasks, she was not being equal in my eyes and I was becoming the "victim". "

Lot's of freaking-great observations, it's very helpful in seeing what's going on.


After reading what you describe, I'm not sure I agree with you on the cause---which you're describing as control/conflict aversion (which is a pretty close though)---but I'd say what it is is not fear of others controlling YOU, but it's actually a fear of your own loss of control over the situation (which could allow others to control it and you as a byproduct). It looks like you are not control/conflict averse--but you're avoiding vulnerability.

It kind of works like this: what you're seeing as control/conflict aversion, are the manifested symptoms of the cause (so it's close)---while the actual cause is the fear/anxiety of loss of control or making yourself vulnerable. For those who seek to control everything--the real issue is that they fear losing control and the consequences of that.

"It is paradoxical that I fear that someone would control and abuse me and when I go blind to this fear I start to control and abuse others, blaming for them for doing it to me. My view is distorted at those moments."

that's hilarious isn't it?! Stupid ego, always ends up creating the situation it's trying to avoid haha. This is an awesome and honest observation. "blaming them for doing it to me"--in psychology it's called 'projection'. It's super smart that you're able to recognize that, because of the ego's defense mechanisms, projection is considered a more advanced one; most people don't.

Regarding your non-fighting relationship: it looks like to me there was not a lot of intimacy built up because neither of you allowed yourselves to be vulnerable with eachother. Not fighting will create suppression--because it's only human to like or dislike things the other is doing. If one is avoid conflicts, then one is not addressing their human need of dissatisfaction at times---when those feelings are suppressed over time, it will result in resentment or can come out really explosively..then calm..hard to say how it will end up coming out, but it won't be healthy.

Your fault in that scenario, is indulging in his/her desire to avoid conflict because you accepted the notion that what the other person desired was a healthy process. At the surface, it seems like it, for sure. On your end, it was probably fairly easy because it meant you didn't have to be very vulnerable. This person was probably fairly reliable too I would guess.

So back to the core issue: vulnerability/control (not you fear of being controlled, but your fear of releasing control)

It's an interesting one :)

First idealism: Everyone has systems of beliefs that they believe 'should' and 'shouldn't be'---it's how they see the world. Everyone should do the dishes at X interval, and everyone SHOULD arrive on time to work, and no one SHOULD be touching you while you sit next to them. That's your ideal world.

The issue with idealism, is that idealism tends to extend to the world at large, rather than ones own self. (the exertion of ones own idealism onto others is a method of control). So you manage yourself on a day to day basis as you think you *should*. you brush your teeth as you think you should, then slow down as you think you should, walk to work, then work, and you see dishes the way they should be. The problem is encountered which generates anxiety, is when the world doesn't meet your expectations.

The core problem is that unconsciously, you believe that whatever anxiety and control issues that exist, will be resolved if the terms of your idealization actually occur. Which is the core (unconscious) error. That's the fundamental issue with those seeking control: they believe that if they can control the variables in life, they can control the outcome, which would be the outcome they idealize. For example: those who experience jealousy often seek to control their partners actions because it's easier to control another person than to let their fears come to occur. If Bob prevents Jane from hanging out with Handsome Phil, he will prevent her from leaving him for Handsome Phil. What Bob doesn't realize is that Jane doesn't value good looks the same way he does, and maybe it's actually Jane that should be concerned :) hah

I would venture to say that you believe that by doing things the way you believe they should be done--that you will diminish whatever anxiety that could crop up. Missing though, that the anxiety wouldn't even exist if the control didn't exist; that they create eachother.

Back to idealism: The issue is that with ideals, people tend to believe the rest of the world *should* do what they're doing. The failure in perspective is to see that everyone has different ideals, and all of their ideals are equally valid as yours. When a person doesn't see that--conflict is generated. Two apposing ideals collide--both thinking they're right, both trying not to lose control of their idealized world. Then either a fight begins to ensue, or a level of resolution is met. "I did the dishes 3 times, and i'll do it once more, but then that's it!"---or "okay funny honey bunny, I'll do the dishes since you did them 3 times already". Or, "it's time to brawl!".

The bottom line is: your ideal world will be different than your partners ideal world, and neither of you should seek to enforce your ideals on other people. You can negotiate and come to an agreement instead, but recognize the ideals of the other person.

You know what might be a good exercise for you? Make a list of how you think the world should be in your daily life--and have her make a list of how she thinks the world should be. You'll notice that conflict will be where those two lists begin to separate. Note even simple things--like me for example, I do this:

1. My coffee grinds should go first into the coffee, then sugar, then cream. The cup should be heated.
2. I should do any dishes in the sink while my coffee is brewing first thing in the morning.
3. I don't want to answer emails or do work before I've 'woken' up and finished my coffee as my 'preparation ritual'.

When something doesn't happen the way it is supposed to in your head, we experience cognitive dissonance, it's that resulting turmoil.

After you've made a list of some of those things--ask yourself "what would happen if those things didn't occur?"--the answer will basically always be 'nothing'. (there are some legitimate ones, like..'the house could burn down')--but typically what I see is that actions due to idealizations create habits, and those habits are often followed forever, eventually losing sight of the reason why they were created in the first place.

You can also explore WHY those ideals came into existence--you may realize that they don't even make any sense. Like in my case, my mother instilled a notion to never, EVER go through a womans purse. To this day, if someone asks me 'hey can you get my phone from my purse?"---I react immediately Iike I'm violating a personal space. In terms of dishes--my father used to leave certain meals out so we could snack on them, so I found myself doing that as an adult--much to the displeasure of a girlfriend who preferred not to leave food 'out'. haha--more conflicts on idealization.



Second: Control and Identification

This has a lot to do with identification (core concept of Tolle). We control the the things we idealize to create a world which conforms to us in order to avoid a possible sense of loss. To figure out what you've identified with, ask yourself "what am I afraid to lose?" Those things you're afraid to lose, will point towards the things you'll make efforts to control. This can include identification with concepts: like, say gay marriage. If you believe god has said that marriage is between a man and woman, and two MEN get married, it is a threat to who 'you' are--because since those beliefs are part of your core self, if you those beliefs aren't there--then part of YOU isn't there. It's saying 'either part of you is false, or the world is wrong'---and it's way easier to point your finger at the world than to challenge your own beliefs.

For example, in your world, you believe that if you have done the dishes 3 times, then your partner should do it. Why? Because that's what is 'fair to you. What are you missing? That maybe what is fair to you, is not fair to your partner. What is also being missed, is that you're exercising your idealism, and fear of losing control, on your partner. The pathology (cause) of your desire to be in control, since you're with someone, requires that your partner also conform to your ideals, and so in turn, enable the behavior. This is what also occurred with the person you dated for six years. You complied with the pathology of your partner because you thought it would help (avoid conflict right?), but it actually doomed the situation.

If your partner complies with an egoic need, with a minor pathology, you may feel content, but ultimately it becomes self-destructive, or mutually destructive, behavior--created by you, and enabled by your partner, unknowingly.

Ironically, reading will backfire for you :) It'll give you tools to control others if you needed--but it'll cause you to self reflect, and will do things like lead you here right now, reading this. Keep reading!

What's key to identification, is that there is a perceived threat of loss in the absence of things that are identified with, and all efforts will be made to ensure that that does not occur. It would be good to note down those things you're identified with. When you make a list---make a second list that is 'the things that I'm afraid to lose'--and maybe 'afraid' isn't the right word, but things that you could say "If this was gone from my life, I wouldn't like this."--and then ask yourself WHY on every item, those things are of value to you--they will *all* point to the ego.

You have a fear of a loss of control--so you control to avoid that possibility due to abuse experiences in your past. That's a pretty normal/human thing. If a dog bites you, it's pretty normal to be cautious of dogs--but at the same time, some people will experience an irrational phobia of dogs as a result. Towards which end of the spectrum are you?


" I have been depressed couple of days now because I understood how much the fear of losing control has controlled my life and I fear to let that awareness go. It just keeps opening me more and more and I am afraid not to stay alert about that fear because I am afraid I would return unconscious. I think I intellectually know that when something has been brought to light it is somewhat impossible to return to the old ways of seeing, but still I fear it"

Why are you beating yourself up so much about doing something you didn't know you were doing? How are you supposed to know something you didn't know you were doing until either someone points it out, or unless the circumstance calls it into light?

Personally, in terms of guilt--I've decided that it doesn't make any sense to punish myself, OR other people, for their unconscious. This is part of the best part of understanding the unconscious, it allows you to be more forgiving, and more compassionate. People almost always TRY to do the right thing--that is, they follow their paths of idealization. And people have accidents too. No one ever thinks "I'm going to get hit by a car as I cross the street today"--but sure enough, they do, constantly. Well, if they were CONSCIOUS of that possibility, they would probably have acted differently.

Try this: stop blaming YOURSELF and others, for things you didn't know but you know now. It doesn't make any sense at all to waste energy feeling guilty or placing blame. Sure, you can say "man I wasted a lot of time"--but you can also say 'thank freaking god that I'm not going to waste any more time doing that'. That's why consciousness is so valuable--with consciousness, it allows you to not repeat the things which created some sort of suffering in your life.

Consider also--that you are now not the person you were. That's right, you're different. With consciousness comes a change of who you are. Eckhart Tolle would say you ARE consciousness--and in line with that, the more conscious you are, the more YOU there is visible. So if you were the number 1, and you became aware of some behaviors, you are then 1+1, you are 2, and no longer 1. Blame your old self for beating your old self up. And look forward to your new self, not beating up your new self in the same fashion. The you now, is a different person, really.

okay! so I believe firmly in progress, and I want to make progress something that can be itemized. And so your homework is the following:

1. Make a list of things you idealize how they things 'should' be.
2. Make that list of things you're identified with. Those are things you're afraid to lose--second column ask, 'why'.
3. Begin to make a habit of not blaming yourself, and others, for your, and their unconscious behaviors. People don't realize what they're doing a lot of the time!

okay I think that's it.

Your self reflection capacity is awesome--keep it up, it's absolutely key to what you're trying to do.
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby 51sth » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:37 am

I gave a bit time with this post of yours as I saw it deserved it. Thank you for your really enlightening answers.

I would suggest to expose yourself intentionally (condition yourself) to the things which you fear. You'll see, absolutely, that the fear will dissipate.


This is interesting. Not avoiding, not waiting, but experiencing these situations consciously when they naturally comes seem to do the trick and start the process of dissolving fears. I have no problem now and if my fears come they shall come. My fears even seem to be my friends because they show me so much about myself. Are they even fears? Or are they more like growing pains directing me or teachers teaching presence which cannot be learned by words, in the end.

It sounds like you're in a chaotic stage---the stage where you're internally conflicted because your conscious and unconscious are colliding. That's pretty normal for everyone as those two collide. I ran into the same circumstance with dishes hah :)"
This was very helpful to hear. I truly was in a chaotic stage but it has gotten easier now. I am so glad that I saw those behaviors in me and so many of them which was driven by fear. Even if the fears aren't dissolved it is ok, because now I have the awareness to see them, to notice them. I trust more to the process.

"After reading what you describe, I'm not sure I agree with you on the cause---which you're describing as control/conflict aversion (which is a pretty close though)---but I'd say what it is is not fear of others controlling YOU, but it's actually a fear of your own loss of control over the situation (which could allow others to control it and you as a byproduct). It looks like you are not control/conflict averse--but you're avoiding vulnerability.


Jackpot! This is very accurate. I see this was a projection too: I fear others could control and abuse me, but the truth is I fear that I lose control. When I see others are controlling me I am giving the power to them to possibly do so, so in away I see that this is judging from my side: I feel scared sometimes because I believe that someone could control me, that people could be cruel, that people could abuse me etc. That is the judging part even before anything even happens and again paradoxically the situation is more likely to happen because of my judgement. This has not been conscious at all.

Awareness doesn't cause my fears, as I thought earlier, but my thinking causes it; my holding of narrow believes. Fear which come comes in the moment and I can notice them and explore them. If I feel bad I truly can stop and watch. Does the present moment heal my fears? I don't know.. is awareness enough? I don't know, but I am finding out and it seems it is already done some healing..

One big change is that I don't feel the need to read anymore or even want to. I can see what has been the feeling behind my reading urges; it has been the urge to control because of my fear of loosing control. Now I feel a light, tender, deep faith in me that I could let everything happen at its own time and that I have, and always had, this wisdom inside of me to handle whatever comes in the moment. This is a tremendous ease.

The problem is encountered which generates anxiety, is when the world doesn't meet your expectations.


Yes, I hate this. This is whatt I have been thinking lately. I have started to realize that the conflicts do arise because of the opposite believes and I have had some glimpses that thes moments ease when I just be with the fear at that moment. This is one of the major issues which I am struggling, but it has already begun to get easier, even when it still is hard.

I am not seeing the point of writing these believes down with my partner and seeing where we differ because I see that it is better to let them come as they come and not pushing them. I am now, so why the rush? If your point was to demonstrate this way in practice how conflicts come I don't think I need the demonstration anymore :D.

The core problem is that unconsciously, you believe that whatever anxiety and control issues that exist, will be resolved if the terms of your idealization actually occur.


This gives me a relief if some major value is been misunderstood by me or the other, like if I believe that people should be equal and there is just different views on the subject which causes me to suffer. When the subjects merge it gets easier, the fear vanishes. But what I think I notice here is that we are probably as much equal as much as we are not, so it shouldn't matter, but it does.. at lest I interpret so because the fear comes and yes, it is the fear of losing control. So the problem is not the subject but the fear of losing control.. noticing this.. what does it do? Will it give me control? If not do I truly notice it then wholly?

the anxiety wouldn't even exist if the control didn't exist; that they create eachother.


This is something to think about. This seems a bit far away from me to understand. Maybe it just comes with presence when I truly see it in action. But this is interesting thing to ponder.

To figure out what you've identified with, ask yourself "what am I afraid to lose?" Those things you're afraid to lose, will point towards the things you'll make efforts to control.


This seems a great way to discover me fears. Wonderful advice. I am afraid to lose my computer, I just got it so my ego needs it still ;). This is a list that I will do and go deep with it.

Try this: stop blaming YOURSELF and others, for things you didn't know but you know now. It doesn't make any sense at all to waste energy feeling guilty or placing blame.


This is very powerful (and everything else related to this). Very helpful indeed.

I don't know how to thank you enough with these insights, this has been great eye opener to me! But anyway, thank you :).
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Re: Finding the right mindset: people are leaving me

Postby meetjoeblack » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:56 pm

51sth wrote:The headline is probably little provocative because I don't feel I suffer much or sometimes at all if someone leaves me in a way or another. The reason for searching for right mindsets is that I have experienced certain ways of thinking very beneficial for enjoying life. In the end I see that when there is no contradictory in the ways things are I am happy and joyful. I have also noticed that we people have some crazy and really contradictory believes which lessen our ability to be in the present moment or should I say happy. So I am very interested to see and find is there something which I haven't fully "understood" so that I don't feel the contradictory part, but that I could stay in the present moment. One of these things which I have been thinking is that how come one could not leave you? This is a bit weird question I think, but this is just a point where to begin the journey to dissolve the thoughts. So once again here is my question: How come no one cannot leave you in away you feel abandoned? Second question which I would like to know after this is do you still feel abandoned if someone leaves you?


There are a lot more wiser people on this forum that are in a better position to share than myself. I will share something. Take it or leave it. Hopefully, it brings something, anything in the forum of insight. I believe it is paradoxical. If I go talk to a woman I like, I feel it in my core and bones that there is something there I want to entertain which guides my behavior. I have absolutely no control in what happens but, I continue to put myself out there and at times, I romanticize in the moment of what could be. To dissolve the thoughts; meditation, do yoga which is like a active meditation. My favorite being savasana or corpse pose in yoga; Surrender to what is and simply, let go. Question one: if you do not feel attached as in, you are not identified with a person acquiring in the form of acquisitions and merging that with ego, you already are complete. I feel society promotes needing someone, something, possessions, materialism, women, sex, money, power, fame etc. that way it promotes marketing. That way, people are always chasing a carrot on a string rather than being present to the moment; here and now. Second question: I feel nothing of abandonment.

If you follow my story or read previous posts I made years ago, I have come from a pretty dark place, and experience. Once I accepted what is, became present to the moment, the pain began to dissolve through my acceptance. This is not to say, I have overcome all life challenges. No. Far from it. I continue to struggle and experience different stresses in many forms. I mentioned a coffee shop girl I met in public, we shared a moment, I took her number, and I felt great chemistry with her. Dating, it just was not there. I did not feel the sparks nor anything sexually with her. I was just happy for the experience. Know that nothing is forever. Everything is special because it will not remain static. Life is always going to change. There are no ordinary moments. Life is very fragile as is time. If you feel abandoned or loss of love, embrace that, be with that, and accept it. The pain will fade and love will flow. In my experiences with dating for example, I am not sad things do not always workout or last forever. I am happy to just be part of the experience. I feel that it brings me closer to where I need to be in my life journey.
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