Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Talk about relationships in the context of Spiritual Enlightenment

Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby starting » Wed May 13, 2015 7:31 pm

Hello all, :wink:

I would like to hear from you about the mirror of relationships. These days I was thinking about it and in fact my relationships, and here I mean with friends or romantic relationships, were always with persons who I admire or with persons presenting some behavior I would like to have or to learn, to develop ...
I was never able to see that, but nowadays this is completely clear to me. I met a new person few days ago and it made me realize that if Im feeling closer to one person it happens due to some behavior or quality I would like to have or I admire in the other.
Is it wrong to think about it or to feel it?

I met a person these days and at first I found him interesting.. This guy is a good person, but I feel like he is not adding anything in my life so far. Apparently he likes me and he is interested, but I sometimes feel like I'm losing interest in him.

To like or to love someone implies to accept any behavior or characteristic? Or it is impossible to love someone without thinking about qualities you want for yourself as well? Or this means that you are only thinking about yourself? :(

Thanks..
“Your life is in transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Something may be saying: `Where is my leaf?’ Don't fear. Trust. All is well. How auspicious that Grace has picked you up like this. Hold this gratitude inside your heart” ~ Mooji
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby lmp » Wed May 13, 2015 9:31 pm

What is the difference between A: relationship and B: the desire to become something which I see in the other?

I'm relating to you now, just by writing something.

I'm desiring something too. I do not admire you, that is not my thing. I desire to fulfill my desire to talk, to have a conversation, something to respond to.

So, what is the difference, what do you say? I have an answer in mind, perhaps I should just state it, but I wanted to ask you first.
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby starting » Wed May 13, 2015 11:38 pm

thanks Imp

lmp wrote:What is the difference between A: relationship and B: the desire to become something which I see in the other?

I'm relating to you now, just by writing something.

I'm desiring something too. I do not admire you, that is not my thing. I desire to fulfill my desire to talk, to have a conversation, something to respond to.

So, what is the difference, what do you say? I have an answer in mind, perhaps I should just state it, but I wanted to ask you first.


I think about relationship as a connection with other person..
You are relating to me, but it is because you are in this forum and you are talking about subjects you are interested...not necessarily this topic :wink: but this forum in general. Am I wrong?
So...In the end we are always thinking about ourselves?
“Your life is in transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Something may be saying: `Where is my leaf?’ Don't fear. Trust. All is well. How auspicious that Grace has picked you up like this. Hold this gratitude inside your heart” ~ Mooji
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby lmp » Thu May 14, 2015 1:42 am

There is a bit more to it than concluding that we are always thinking about ourselves. It's that there are really two movements going on. Firstly, we have a lot of relationships, I might meet and talk to a hundred people a week, most of them superficial short simple meetings (saying hello to somebody, making a phone call etc) and some of them a bit more complex and lasting and some are very long term, like with family members. So we have a lot of memories about relationships and from these memories we develop some preferences and we begin to dislike some relationships and desire others. In this sense we are thinking about ourselves, trying to compensate for what we do not have, or fulfill our own need, or get what we want. It is good to discover ourselves in this way isn't it, it has value to see that we are actually like this. Lets not begin by condemning it, but rather its a first step of a discovery of sorts.

Secondly, there is the actual relationship going on between us now, however simple, it is going on. It is likely that the new relationship has no meaning in itself if we merely look at what we admire and wish for, or look to fulfill what we want. The actual relationship is now, whatever it consists of, but the aim of our thoughts are about the future (to acquire the desired thing) so there is not quite a meeting in the moment if we are immediately off somewhere else. This is a very common problem, people are generally after what they want, they are more related to their thoughts than to each other.

When we see it we can do a bit of both, test it, perhaps we stop using others for what we want and relate to each other as we are, perhaps not. If both people actually relate to each other and not to their own ideas there is goodness and co-operation instead of each one individually going after his own particular thing.

Well that was the answer I had in mind. Perhaps you wish to say something.
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby lmp » Thu May 14, 2015 1:51 am

And yes I am here because of the topics, this one being about relationship and discovering what I/we think about as we look into this mirror. I'm interested in both, real relationship and how we fail to have it.
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby lmp » Thu May 14, 2015 2:15 am

"In the end we are always thinking about ourselves"

A little bit more about this. Our options are to either live in the malfunctioning, unfulfilling conflicted way of no relationship but only/rather just thinking about ourselves, or facing that it is so. Facing it IS understanding that it is so and when we understand life as it is, what comes out of it? Conflict, which is basically confusion, comes to an end and there is peace. I don't know if you agree.
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby rachMiel » Thu May 14, 2015 3:11 am

starting wrote:Or it is impossible to love someone without thinking about qualities you want for yourself as well?

Reframing this slightly:

Is it possible to love someone without wanting something from them?

This something can be pretty much anything: qualities to learn from, things to admire, tenderness, affection, sex, money, power, companionship, protection, security, etc.

Is it possible to love without desire of any kind?
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby starting » Thu May 14, 2015 3:45 pm

lmp wrote:Secondly, there is the actual relationship going on between us now, however simple, it is going on. It is likely that the new relationship has no meaning in itself if we merely look at what we admire and wish for, or look to fulfill what we want. The actual relationship is now, whatever it consists of, but the aim of our thoughts are about the future (to acquire the desired thing) so there is not quite a meeting in the moment if we are immediately off somewhere else. This is a very common problem, people are generally after what they want, they are more related to their thoughts than to each other.


I agree with you Imp. Maybe this is the real problem...we are always thinking about the next moment...the future. Sometimes just thinking about the next minute...
But do you agree when we love someone, when we identify that we love someone it is easy to enjoy the meeting in the moment?
I do not know if I made myself clear. As I can realize, when I do not love, I am always thinking about the next moment...but if I "maybe think" I'm in love, the moment is also precious. However to feel this love, we are being fulfilled with something as rachMiel said... For me qualities to learn from, things to admire are things I can realize made me feel interested...and then the feeling of love comes easily.
“Your life is in transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Something may be saying: `Where is my leaf?’ Don't fear. Trust. All is well. How auspicious that Grace has picked you up like this. Hold this gratitude inside your heart” ~ Mooji
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby starting » Thu May 14, 2015 3:49 pm

rachMiel wrote:
starting wrote:Or it is impossible to love someone without thinking about qualities you want for yourself as well?

Reframing this slightly:

Is it possible to love someone without wanting something from them?

This something can be pretty much anything: qualities to learn from, things to admire, tenderness, affection, sex, money, power, companionship, protection, security, etc.

Is it possible to love without desire of any kind?


rachMiel...even the unconditional love a mother has for her children...she is receiving tenderness, she is learning, companionship...so in the end she loves her children because it is good for her?
What do you think about it?
“Your life is in transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Something may be saying: `Where is my leaf?’ Don't fear. Trust. All is well. How auspicious that Grace has picked you up like this. Hold this gratitude inside your heart” ~ Mooji
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby lmp » Thu May 14, 2015 4:32 pm

starting wrote:I agree with you Imp. Maybe this is the real problem...we are always thinking about the next moment...the future. Sometimes just thinking about the next minute...


I think it is definitely problematic. But we have to be certain how this desire for a future outcome causes a problem. At first it seems like it is taking us in a good direction, towards what we want, whatever that may be, courage, openness, action, kindness, consideration etc. But on the other hand if we concentrate on one thing, lets say courage, we miss out on 99,999% of what is going on. So this focus is likely the problem, when we look for something, we seem to lose a lot more in another direction. The ability to relate now is one thing we lose.

starting wrote:But do you agree when we love someone, when we identify that we love someone it is easy to enjoy the meeting in the moment?


Yes I do agree, it's easy. If I dont want something from you and you don't want something from me, then there is no pressure to perform, its easy because of it. We just have two parallell lives without friction.

But it is also possible that we find it easy because momentarily our desires have been met and we feel fulfilled and therefore its easy, but in this case new desires will begin to pop up and make us uncomfortable, doubting each other gradually and so forth. Do you really love me, eh.

starting wrote:I do not know if I made myself clear. As I can realize, when I do not love, I am always thinking about the next moment...but if I "maybe think" I'm in love, the moment is also precious. However to feel this love, we are being fulfilled with something as rachMiel said... For me qualities to learn from, things to admire are things I can realize made me feel interested...and then the feeling of love comes easily.


I don't know. What makes us look to the next moment? I think the question is quite deep, desire of a better future may be the way we do it, but why. Is it because we do not understand the value of facing this moment that we look to another?
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby rachMiel » Thu May 14, 2015 10:30 pm

I think it's important to remember that "love" is just a word that points to a complex of subjective thoughts and emotions. Love is not a concrete thing, some defined object you can declare "100% authentic." What I call love and what you call love might be vastly different. Love is in the heart of the beholder.

starting wrote:rachMiel...even the unconditional love a mother has for her children...she is receiving tenderness, she is learning, companionship...so in the end she loves her children because it is good for her?

It's a chicken or egg thing, right?

Sometimes the benefits (tenderness, learning, companionship, etc.) *cause* the love to arise.

Other times the love arises on its own, without motive, and the benefits follow as a (welcome) side effect.

Most of the time it's probably a mix, something Ashley (from this forum) would call a feedback loop. The benefits feed the love, which in turns feeds the benefits, which again feeds the love, etc.
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby meetjoeblack » Sun May 24, 2015 1:56 am

Wrong? No. Its real. It is what you feel. Just meditate and let go.

I posted something recently. People viewed it but i did not get much of a response or serious acknowledgement.

What i did was meditate on it. It subsided and I made some decisions on how to go about it as I progress.

Interesting that I feel I am more aware now but, it becomes something of a new ego ever so often from time to time.


Like you, I feel that connection with someone ever so often but, I am fooled at times. People tend to put on the show and with time, you see true colors. The fact you see something within yourself is a big step forward. I have felt like that third kid in the sandbox. I suppose I have sort of made an ego out of it. Its something I am working on.

See, "unconditional love" is a fallacy. It does not exist. Everything is based upon a condition. You love someone who you find out is unfaithful and therefore, you move on because you have more self respect and you have lost trust there lies the condition.
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby starting » Thu May 28, 2015 6:39 pm

thank you all

Sometimes feelings are stronger and I start to think again...about everything. Sometimes the feelings are about good things, sometimes they make me feel in doubt about everything I've learned so far...but all is fine.

‘Feelings come and go like clouds in a windy sky. Conscious breathing is my anchor.’
Thich Nhat Hanh

:wink:
“Your life is in transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Something may be saying: `Where is my leaf?’ Don't fear. Trust. All is well. How auspicious that Grace has picked you up like this. Hold this gratitude inside your heart” ~ Mooji
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Re: Everyone is our mirror. So, what do we want?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 6:43 am

starting wrote:Hello all, :wink:

I would like to hear from you about the mirror of relationships. These days I was thinking about it and in fact my relationships, and here I mean with friends or romantic relationships, were always with persons who I admire or with persons presenting some behavior I would like to have or to learn, to develop ...
I was never able to see that, but nowadays this is completely clear to me. I met a new person few days ago and it made me realize that if Im feeling closer to one person it happens due to some behavior or quality I would like to have or I admire in the other.
Is it wrong to think about it or to feel it?

I met a person these days and at first I found him interesting.. This guy is a good person, but I feel like he is not adding anything in my life so far. Apparently he likes me and he is interested, but I sometimes feel like I'm losing interest in him.

To like or to love someone implies to accept any behavior or characteristic? Or it is impossible to love someone without thinking about qualities you want for yourself as well? Or this means that you are only thinking about yourself? :(

Thanks..


starting wrote:Hello all, :wink:

I would like to hear from you about the mirror of relationships. These days I was thinking about it and in fact my relationships, and here I mean with friends or romantic relationships, were always with persons who I admire or with persons presenting some behavior I would like to have or to learn, to develop ...
I was never able to see that, but nowadays this is completely clear to me. I met a new person few days ago and it made me realize that if Im feeling closer to one person it happens due to some behavior or quality I would like to have or I admire in the other.
Is it wrong to think about it or to feel it?

I met a person these days and at first I found him interesting.. This guy is a good person, but I feel like he is not adding anything in my life so far. Apparently he likes me and he is interested, but I sometimes feel like I'm losing interest in him.

To like or to love someone implies to accept any behavior or characteristic? Or it is impossible to love someone without thinking about qualities you want for yourself as well? Or this means that you are only thinking about yourself? :(

Thanks..


We can wait the rest of our lives waiting for the right person. We can live our entire life waiting to live.

I tend to discover friends and relationships based upon whether or not the person has an understanding (or inclination to understand), consciousness, human existence, and how both relate to life in general. I never dismiss anyone though, because everyone is worthy of presence, but I do tend to be more interested in people that have the same interests as myself, or at the very least, present a perspective that further widens (so to speak) the field of conscious awareness.

For example, I have a friend, who is really, really interesting, a rare gem of a person I like very much, totally inquisitive and asks all the right questions and totally challenges my ability to answer these questions without being contradictory, I love it. Normally this type of person would be high on my list for friendship, however, he also is unfortunately trapped in a self perpetuating cycle of dismissal, finding any minute reason to discredit any advice that might be presented. And of course, we all know from experience, that there can be found fault with all and any human conceptualization, no matter how careful and complete we attempted to formulate it. Perfection in form is impossible, as all form is always changing, always moving, always evolving, in a constant state of flux.

Could I have a relationship with this person though? Yes of course, but it depends upon his ability to move beyond his current state of limitation. Either way, I'm not fussed, he is where he is, and I'm were I am, and if the two states of consciousness are ripe enough to emerge, then so be it, I have no preference.

My girlfriend, whom I love deeply, is a special kind of person and we were (I was) fortunate enough that we met when we did. She has this amazing ability to understand me no matter how existential, nihilistic, and unnecessarily complex my ramblings become. I have a tendency to contemplate a lot (not always a good thing of course), and deeply, about life in general, existence, and the human condition.

"Everyone is our mirror", in the sense that everyone has within, the same universal consciousness, undifferentiated and complete.

Is it wrong to find in another person some quality or characteristic that we admire? No, of course it isn't. We are all here together, to help one another. If that person has managed to develop a characteristic that we find admirable, then by all means learn from them. My girlfriend for example, has an amazing capacity to relate to people, to be compassionate and empathic and nurturing. I love this about her, because these are things that I'm not very good at. I learn from her every single day. After 15 years together I am still constantly amazed at the things she reveals, the things I can still learn. I feel blessed to know her. I might even be so bold to say, she is the Yin to my Yang. :D

To like or to love someone implies to accept any behavior or characteristic?


Unconditional love means total acceptance. Human love however, is much more conditional, and much more realistic to life circumstances. We cannot for example, accept the condition of being physically and/or psychologically abused. This is simply being logical and rational about the current life situation. Nobody can be expected to remain 100% committed to a relationship that is quite clearly dysfunctional.

We have three choices in any given situation. We either change it, move away, or accept it. Accepting a current life situation does not mean that we have to remain in an absurd situation, if we can change it or move on, then we can do so, no problem at all. Being spiritual enlightened ( so to speak) does not mean that we also need to be passive. We can change what can be changed, we can move where we can move, and accept what is.

Or it is impossible to love someone without thinking about qualities you want for yourself as well? Or this means that you are only thinking about yourself?


Ultimately, everything is selfish. Ultimately all there ever is only ever your own perception, perspective, existence, reality. It is impossible to see from some else's perspective, as if you could see out of the eyes of another, then that perspective would be your own, not theirs, per se. There is no way at all to even judge whether there really even is anybody else, apart from our own awareness. How would we quantify the qualities of such a thing?

Ultimately the only thing that matters absolutely, is that we are bringing into awareness, the conscious state of being. Everything else is relative.

PS: Sorry about the lengthy post. :)
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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