Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Talk about relationships in the context of Spiritual Enlightenment
meetjoeblack
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by meetjoeblack » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:03 am

dijmart wrote:Mjb,
What you said reminded me what my husband of 25 yrs said to me on our "first" date. He said, "I don't date people who date around, so if that's you, this will be our last date". ...I thought, Ok, buddy I'll tell you what you want to hear and then do what I want! But, I didn't date anyone else and we've been together 29 yrs total. Since I was 17, he was 21.
How did it remind you of your husband? Which part specifically?

LTRs are a sort of painbody for me. I was rigid. I thought it was "________" and it was something I tried to encapsulate. I would hold on tight for dear life. What I in turn did was actually smoother it. What happens if you smoother a fire? As a child, I was fascinated by wild life and insects even. Well, I would try so hard to catch something, a lot of times, I ended up ruining or hurting what I was trying to catch even though, my intentions was good. I wanted to be part of that world.

It is so strange now a days with tinder and online. In these measures of casual dating, it is hard to imagine taking any of it seriously because, it is a dating app or site. The same with interacting in a bar or club. Then again, I am single as I have been most of my life. The only difference being, my intentions to live at my edge, to take a risk, and see it for what it is if anything else.

Similar to TS' experience, I had a similar situation with a girl who suggested we hookup, and we recently ran into one another. Nothing ever happened as I preferred to do coffee and know someone then just have sex. I use to think it is a linear process and it has to be a certain way. It doesn't. It can be whatever it is or not.

Thanks for sharing Dij. I like your insight and openness. Its definitely something I am working on in future relationships lol

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dijmart
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by dijmart » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:20 am

Hi MJB,

How did it remind you of your husband? Which part specifically?
This part-

I know a girl that told a guy that she needed to go on dates and that, its not so much just the comfort of a title that she required. She wanted some sort of investment. Today, they are married with children.
Basically, it just reminded me of my story. My husband wanting that "investment", not a few days in but on our first date...lol
Thanks for sharing Dij. I like your insight and openness. Its definitely something I am working on in future relationships lol
No problem! :wink: I'm pretty honest if people are sincere.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

painBody
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by painBody » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:42 pm

Hi Brandi,

I think the most important thing I have to tell you is that there is nothing wrong with your desire to know what you and he are, perhaps only in your reasons for wanting that knowledge - societal expectations, which are just a product of human unconsciousness. But, I think the other reason for you wanting that knowledge is not to be ignored - the fact that we are social animals, all of us. It is hardwired in us to want company. Not just company, but the stability and security of a longstanding relationship. If the anthropologists and psychologists can't convince you that human interaction is important, listen to your loneliness - not everything it tells you, but its fundamental message.

We get beaten with a spiritual stick here on this forum, and elsewhere ... people constantly telling us "You don't need a relationship. You're enough by yourself." That is true on one level. But, that is not honoring the needs of your human form. My core message here is to not beat yourself with that stick. If you meet a human being, no matter how "enlightened", who tells you that they don't like the feeling of knowing that, when they go home after a long day's work, there is someone special waiting for them, they're lying not only to you but also to themselves and their partners. The stability and security, the feeling of being cared about and being safe and protected, is the whole point of a relationship ! Otherwise, you could just as easily find a new stranger to enjoy the moment with, every time you feel lonely. Is that going to work ? For most of us, no :) That long-term aspect of a relationship is just as important as enjoying the moment when you're with that special someone. And, that is not an egoic need; it is something far more primordial, which means it is not artificial like the ego; we didn't create that need, it was born with us ... it is an intrinsic part of being human. Wanting a new relationship just to post pics on Facebook and make your ex feel like crap IS egoic. Wanting to share your life with someone because you feel a deep innate craving for human interaction and companionship is NOT !

Being "enlightened" doesn't mean ignoring/rejecting the needs of the human form - eating, sleeping, pooping, having a partner. It means being aligned *with* the form that you are. Now, how do we reconcile the two ? Recognizing the fleeting/impermanent nature of form vs honoring our human form which likes long-term relationships ? We try to find a balance. We honor the human form from within the foundation of the formless. We listen to our mind and body and its needs/desires, and we figure out which needs are real and which are imagined, from a place of presence.

The other part of it, I think, is realizing that, you and he both need your space to be yourselves, but again, not in the way that society usually means "space". I mean space more generally - do not impose your identity on the other, whether that dictates how much time you spend together, interests/hobbies, "values", opinion of "what you are", etc. You can be who you are and simply respect the other as he is. Alternatively, if you don't like the other's form identity, walk away. Instead, people often try to stay in relationships and change the other. Failing strategy.

Harsh experience in (attempted) relationships has taught me that the harder you try to make someone stay with you or compliant in some way, the harder you push them away or make them non-compliant. Only now do I understand why. Anytime your ego imposes an expectation on the other, all it does is strengthen that person's own ego, which may be in total opposition to yours. So, if that person has a slight apprehension about the relationship to begin with, any further demands by you will only intensify that apprehension. Your ego will strengthen the other's ego. If you force someone to do something, they will refuse to do it, almost just to spite you for forcing them, when they might have willingly done it otherwise ! That is why you hear cliches like "let's see what happens" or "let's take it slow". Put the food on the table and walk away. If the person wants to eat it, he/she will. If you try to force it down their throat, that will only tighten their muscles responsible for vomiting the food.

Most important of all, please don't ignore your human needs just to create an identity for yourself as "spiritual". Honor the human form and its needs, both yours and his. Realize that form and formless are not mutually exclusive; you can honor both ... in fact, they go hand in hand.

And welcome to the forum !

meetjoeblack
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by meetjoeblack » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:38 am

dijmart wrote:Hi MJB,

How did it remind you of your husband? Which part specifically?
This part-

I know a girl that told a guy that she needed to go on dates and that, its not so much just the comfort of a title that she required. She wanted some sort of investment. Today, they are married with children.
Basically, it just reminded me of my story. My husband wanting that "investment", not a few days in but on our first date...lol
Thanks for sharing Dij. I like your insight and openness. Its definitely something I am working on in future relationships lol
No problem! :wink: I'm pretty honest if people are sincere.
Thanks for sharing. I like your story. It sounds cheesy but, there is so much chaos in life, indivudally or collectively. So much ego but, when I hear this type of story, it has a way of turning down the volume. :)

I try to be sincere and honest. Maybe too honest lol Thanks again for sharing.

meetjoeblack
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by meetjoeblack » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:48 am

painBody wrote:
We get beaten with a spiritual stick here on this forum, and elsewhere ... people constantly telling us "You don't need a relationship. You're enough by yourself." That is true on one level. But, that is not honoring the needs of your human form. My core message here is to not beat yourself with that stick. If you meet a human being, no matter how "enlightened", who tells you that they don't like the feeling of knowing that, when they go home after a long day's work, there is someone special waiting for them, they're lying not only to you but also to themselves and their partners. The stability and security, the feeling of being cared about and being safe and protected, is the whole point of a relationship ! Otherwise, you could just as easily find a new stranger to enjoy the moment with, every time you feel lonely. Is that going to work ? For most of us, no :) That long-term aspect of a relationship is just as important as enjoying the moment when you're with that special someone. And, that is not an egoic need; it is something far more primordial, which means it is not artificial like the ego; we didn't create that need, it was born with us ... it is an intrinsic part of being human. Wanting a new relationship just to post pics on Facebook and make your ex feel like crap IS egoic. Wanting to share your life with someone because you feel a deep innate craving for human interaction and companionship is NOT !
Interesting post. I've only once came across the brow beating here. Its usually pretty friendly here or so I have found.

Social media actually gives me anxiety. I see pics or vids and it makes me feel like I am missing out on something even though, I know it doesn't necessarily give a full picture of reality. For this reason, I really limit my activity on social media, and even forums (at least, I try).

Dij reminds me to really appreciate and enjoy this time I have while single because I will probably miss it (I think was the jist of her advice lol). I think she is correct but, I still have that desire and ego for a LTR. So, I am working on being present while single so, when I am in a LTR, I can be present then, and enjoy. I can be present with interacting and meeting new people.

I do agree with you about it being a intrinsic part of human nature. We're still very tribal though, not nearly as savage as things once were. Still, I think there is this notion in society that promotes LTRs and that, without it, you aren't complete. People then get to a relationship or marriage, were unfulfilled single, and even more unhappily married. I think people need to find their own path whatever it maybe as long as its not hurting people. I don't mean, "i'm offended," I mean, actually hurting people like violence. People are to offended these days lol

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dijmart
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by dijmart » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:07 pm

Dij reminds me to really appreciate and enjoy this time I have while single because I will probably miss it (I think was the jist of her advice lol)
Yes. As James Swartz says, the world is a zero sum game. With every gain there's a loss and with every loss there's a gain!
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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rachMiel
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by rachMiel » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:21 pm

dijmart wrote:
Dij reminds me to really appreciate and enjoy this time I have while single because I will probably miss it (I think was the jist of her advice lol)
Yes. As James Swartz says, the world is a zero sum game. With every gain there's a loss and with every loss there's a gain!
In the world of form, perhaps. But in The World (brahman, paramartha) there is no zero, no sum, no game, no words, shhhhh ...
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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dijmart
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by dijmart » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:04 pm

In the world of form, perhaps. But in The World (brahman, paramartha) there is no zero, no sum, no game, no words, shhhhh ...

Life within the "apparent" world of form, which is a "refection" of pure awareness/consciousness (Brahman), is a zero sum game.

As Forest Gump would say..."and that's all I got to say bout' that!"
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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rachMiel
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by rachMiel » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:29 pm

Image
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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dijmart
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by dijmart » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:36 pm

rachMiel wrote:Image
:lol:
Take what you like and leave the rest.

meetjoeblack
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by meetjoeblack » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:16 am

dijmart wrote:
Dij reminds me to really appreciate and enjoy this time I have while single because I will probably miss it (I think was the jist of her advice lol)
Yes. As James Swartz says, the world is a zero sum game. With every gain there's a loss and with every loss there's a gain!
I am realizing more and more that, a good portion of my life, I've been chasing phantoms. I could be suddenly just craving something ridiculous and then, the mind creates this illusion and story as if this would be the answer. It sort of puts the topic of free choice and fate into question.

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dijmart
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by dijmart » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:08 am

I am realizing more and more that, a good portion of my life, I've been chasing phantoms
Yup, that's the way it is mostly. When you're identified as a "me". Some phantoms are better (more pleasant), then others. When theyre very unpleasant, suffering arises. It's the "desire -> obtain -> potential to lose what you've obtained game. Fear arises (it seems) that either we wont get what we want or that once we get it, that we'll lose it. Ego is never happy. Seeing through the illusion is the only answer.

It sort of puts the topic of free choice and fate into question.
It does, doesn't it? If you are a "me" then you have "apparent" free will. If you are awareness "associated" with the apparent person, then who exactly has free will?
Take what you like and leave the rest.

meetjoeblack
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by meetjoeblack » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:12 am

dijmart wrote: Yup, that's the way it is mostly. When you're identified as a "me". Some phantoms are better (more pleasant), then others. When theyre very unpleasant, suffering arises. It's the "desire -> obtain -> potential to lose what you've obtained game.
Yeah. Well, I recently ran into a girl. It brought up negative feelings. It usually does. My past holds a lot of pain. I've been doing a lot of deep breathing, guided meditation, and pranic breathing. I notice that, when my pain body arises, I shallow breathe so, I immediately stomach/deep breathe into the unpleasant sensation. I then try to let it go on the exhalation. After three breathes, it subsides, and though I can feel it, the energy field around it feels lighter. :)
Fear arises (it seems) that either we wont get what we want or that once we get it, that we'll lose it. Ego is never happy. Seeing through the illusion is the only answer.
It is so weird. I felt great when we met, when we dated, and hungout. Then, after, it I felt negative emotions which I know are the flipside of the feelings I originally felt. It was the other side of that same coin. It sometimes feels pointless because of that very reason but, I am being cynical when I think that.
It does, doesn't it?
Yeah. it does. I admire your place of mind/presence/consciousness. I've been posting a little more lately but, I stop only when I notice I am being negative and not adding value. Fate and free will are very difficult concepts for me. As I want to believe that, our choices matter, and make a difference therefore, there is a point to actions we take. Then again, there is a element of fate like death which there is no escaping. Something I am doing or working on to the best of my ability is being present; saying yes to whatever is. Saying yes to this moment and making it the best that I possibly can or learn from the situation and move on.
If you are a "me" then you have "apparent" free will. If you are awareness "associated" with the apparent person, then who exactly has free will?
It messes with my noggin lol

Your a bit of a mind hack with that tidbit of wisdom :)

I hope you are doing good.

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dijmart
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by dijmart » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:14 pm

I then try to let it go on the exhalation. After three breathes, it subsides, and though I can feel it, the energy field around it feels lighter. :)
Good, also note it is always thought that creates the feelings. It happens extremely fast, so you may not recognize this cycle at first. Stay alert and try to notice. Anyways, thoughts arise without our conscious control mostly, so when the negative thought or feeling arises you can consciously choose another thought. A positive or neutral one, to counter balance the negative thought. If you do this repeatedly when negative thoughts arise you will recondition your programming over time and/or start seeing them (thoughts) as just a thought. Your belief in them keep them active and they will repeat and repeat until you break the cycle consciously.
I want to believe that, our choices matter, and make a difference therefore, there is a point to actions we take.
Yes, they do make a difference and they do matter in the "apparent" world. You have no choice, but to make choices that is the Jiva (persons) programming. Even not choosing, is in fact a choice. You can't get away from it or escape it. You can only see through the game.

Dij said-
If you are a "me" then you have "apparent" free will. If you are awareness "associated" with the apparent person, then who exactly has free will?
MJB said-
It messes with my noggin lol

Your a bit of a mind hack with that tidbit of wisdom :)
Its suppose to mess with your noggin, it's the noggin that is the problem! It believes it's a seperate volitional entity. In reality it's a mere appearance. It exists, its just not "real". Real being what never changes, the background, substratum of all that appears.

The topic of free will is HUGE and one that only made sense once I went the traditional Vedanta path. As Isvara (The creator, sustainer, destroyer of the apparent world) must be taken into account or it fails to make sense to the mind. In Vedanta, Isvara wields Maya (illusion/ignorance) by use of vasanas (past impressions/tendencies) and the 3 gunas (cosmic energies) therefore making Isvara a puppet master and us Jivas (persons) the puppets.

However, to the individual jiva (person) perspective it feels very much like we are making choices and have free will. It's set up that way, jivas are a part of Isvara. As long as you think you are the doer/enjoyer and identify as that, then you are stuck in Samsara (bound to the material world).

When you realize it is Isvara (awareness, plus Maya) and you are awareness watching/witnessing the Jiva, you still have to do your world duties and listen to your inner promptings, but you don't take it all as seriously and aren't bound as a doer/enjoyer. You are beyond the doer. So, although you can't escape from pleasure and pain, as the apparent person you are associated with, you no longer suffer as you know you are awareness and not the body/mind.

This Self knowledge needs to be "assimilated" which takes, as long as it takes, to become "firm". Prior to that there is identification that swings back and forth between sometimes identifying as the apparent person (not just associated) and then identifying as who you truly are, awareness.

I could not respond to the question of free will without using Vedanta and sanskrit words, sorry.
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Re: Letting Go of Concepts and Titles

Post by meetjoeblack » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:36 am

dijmart wrote: Good, also note it is always thought that creates the feelings. It happens extremely fast, so you may not recognize this cycle at first. Stay alert and try to notice. Anyways, thoughts arise without our conscious control mostly, so when the negative thought or feeling arises you can consciously choose another thought. A positive or neutral one, to counter balance the negative thought. If you do this repeatedly when negative thoughts arise you will recondition your programming over time and/or start seeing them (thoughts) as just a thought. Your belief in them keep them active and they will repeat and repeat until you break the cycle consciously.

Its harder but, I am more present then I use to be. When I was going through politics and crap, when I go through deaths in the fam or some shitty life event, I am aware of my shallow breathing, i feel anxiety, and i just breathe in deeper. I do my breathing exercises. I notice this with money or thinking about student debt or a mortgage or car payments so, i am very cautious when it comes to spending.
Yes, they do make a difference and they do matter in the "apparent" world. You have no choice, but to make choices that is the Jiva (persons) programming. Even not choosing, is in fact a choice. You can't get away from it or escape it. You can only see through the game.
I have always been fascinated by "chaos theroy," and "the butterfly effect." Like, causality and the aftermath of a decision or not making a specific decision. I sometimes wonder if there were stages or choices I could have made to put me in a better position in life. Better i use loosely given it is a perspective.
Its suppose to mess with your noggin, it's the noggin that is the problem! It believes it's a seperate volitional entity. In reality it's a mere appearance. It exists, its just not "real". Real being what never changes, the background, substratum of all that appears.

The topic of free will is HUGE and one that only made sense once I went the traditional Vedanta path. As Isvara (The creator, sustainer, destroyer of the apparent world) must be taken into account or it fails to make sense to the mind. In Vedanta, Isvara wields Maya (illusion/ignorance) by use of vasanas (past impressions/tendencies) and the 3 gunas (cosmic energies) therefore making Isvara a puppet master and us Jivas (persons) the puppets.
I listened to Clinical psychologist/prof Jordan Peterson about consciousness and creating different "states" or "paradigms."

These states then unlock or open different perspectives but similar to the movie "Inception," like a dream, they eventually collapse and disappear. Then, the process begins over again and again. Fascinating stuff.
However, to the individual jiva (person) perspective it feels very much like we are making choices and have free will. It's set up that way, jivas are a part of Isvara. As long as you think you are the doer/enjoyer and identify as that, then you are stuck in Samsara (bound to the material world).

When you realize it is Isvara (awareness, plus Maya) and you are awareness watching/witnessing the Jiva, you still have to do your world duties and listen to your inner promptings, but you don't take it all as seriously and aren't bound as a doer/enjoyer. You are beyond the doer. So, although you can't escape from pleasure and pain, as the apparent person you are associated with, you no longer suffer as you know you are awareness and not the body/mind.

This Self knowledge needs to be "assimilated" which takes, as long as it takes, to become "firm". Prior to that there is identification that swings back and forth between sometimes identifying as the apparent person (not just associated) and then identifying as who you truly are, awareness.

I could not respond to the question of free will without using Vedanta and sanskrit words, sorry.
I am learning about it through reading the Yoga Sutras but, I still don't follow or fully understand so, I likely need a explaination or a book that goes in depth about it sort of like the Gita as it was/were. Breaks down each segment. I have read several copies and accounts. Its a greAT story.

Particularly, "freedom from outcome" where, Krisna speaks about non-attachment to "the fruits of your labor."

Then, it messes with me because I try to be attached to being unattached. Again, messes with my noggin lol

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