Male Dominance Leads to Female Lying

Talk about relationships in the context of Spiritual Enlightenment
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Male Dominance Leads to Female Lying

Post by weichen » Thu May 10, 2007 6:45 pm

It is my prejudice that, average speaking, women lie much often than men, and that they lie on small matters, and they make up funny story, twist things 180 degree. They twist facts that just happened five minutes ago.

But I think this perceived egoic expressions on female, if indeed exists, is the result of male dominance. i.e. the society (and the man in her life) are at least the co-creator of the expression of this "weakness" and many other weakness of women.

The current form of human society is filled with "thoughts, labels, judgements", they impose violence on men and women alike, but the violence imposed on women is much stronger. Consequently, women are far more insecure, self-criticising than men.

The pain that women suffer can be felt by men (their husbands, sons, brothers) through the lies women make. It is their attempt to avoid being harshly judged by their men.

Men can do these things to help:
1. tell the woman in their life that "it is ok to lie". Lying is necessary to deal with hostility, the ability to lie is highly valued for certain professions such as spy, and ....., ....., ..... (edited out for political reason) :-)
2. praise the women in their live often more to make them feel appreciated.
3. be extra careful in language (so that suggestions do not sound like criticism)
4. never raise his voice, a thought is violent enough, a raised voice make a thought much worse
5. above all, see the deep root of her lying, and take responsibility for her lying.

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Post by Intel » Thu May 10, 2007 7:11 pm

Take responsibility for her lying?
If your talking in the sense of "take responsibility for the world" then sure, but for such a personal matter no. You would be better off enquiring the direct reason she feels she needs to lie, and show love and understanding.

I don't agree that the violence imposed on women is greater than men. Traditionally men and women alike seem to have a much easier time deciding that a man should die or suffer violence, whereas women fall into the 'children' category of innocence. I would say there is less love in the world for a man, but I won't get into that.
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Post by Agnieszka » Thu May 10, 2007 8:31 pm

I hardly ever lie. My ego feels sick even when I have to tell half-truth. I blush terribly.
When I face male domination (and I do), I start talking about my feelings and when "male" doesn't want to listen and discuss it (which is mostly the case) or gets angry, I withdraw. The women I know are alike. Male domination is biological and comes from unconsciousness.

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Post by Ives » Thu May 10, 2007 9:19 pm

In my experience, men are better at wilfully lying. That is, of deciding beforehand in a rational manner what to say in order to be untruthful about something.

Women, in contrast, tend to “lie” more through having (mis)interpreted an event through their emotions. So they can recount a completely different version of the facts, but it’s through a very active emotional interpretation (still unconscious) of the facts, rather than through a deliberate decision to lie.

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Post by me? » Sat May 12, 2007 8:46 pm

I agree that women tend to lie more often than men.
Every egoistic mind out there would hate me for saying this. :)
The man-woman-relationship has been very much twisted in the past centuries.
Most of the time lying happens unconsciously.

We all lie - especially to ourself.
It's a mechanism to protect our ego and identity.
Admitting even to ourself that we are wrong, would reduce our selfworth, so we lie.
I have decided to get rid of the habit of lying a while ago and I often hear things like, "But being honest will make you vulnerable!"
Yes it does.
If we tell everybody the truth at all times, but still lie to ourselves, we will suffer tremendously.
Being honest doesn't mean that we have to tell everybody everything - if we do not want to be honest about a certain thing, we can simply say, "I do not wish to talk about this manner.".
It is crucial to understand this.
Once we do, we can start being honest in situations, that before would've caused us to lie.
It takes some 'practice' to learn using the right language, but once we've got it, very many problems will simply disappear from our life.

Honestly, we all felt bad about answering the question, "Did you like the meal, I made you?" with a yes, although we didn't.
Not to hurt the feelings of another person is the #1 excuse for lying.
We constantly think about how we are percieved by others and think ourself responsible for their feelings.
The thing is that we have zero control about other's feelings. If someone is stuck in his ego, he can percieve even our offering of help with the purest motives as an insult.
The only thing that counts are our motives.
Back to the meal. A possible answer could be, "I do appreciate your effort and I do not want to hurt you, but I will be honest with you. I didn't like it.". We could name a few reasons and offer to assist preparing the meal next time so as to improve the quality.

Another aspect of being honest is not to resent others for lying.
As said before, even we do lie - so it would hypocritical to judge others for doing so, too.
We can have compassion for the other person as he/she probably lies out of fear.
When we have spotted a lie and find it necessary to know the truth, we can simply ask for it. We must show the other person that he does not have to fear the truth. We also must show him that we understand his behaviour.
We can say, "I do understand, you're afraid to be honest, but I urgently ask you to tell me the truth."
We should not threaten or become angry as this will only reinforce the fear of the other person.

When it comes to women, I believe that it helps alot to lead by example.
We should be as honest as we can with everbody and even a bit more with our partner. After all we enter a close relationship to assist each other growing.
We cannot expect our partner to be honest with us, if we are not.

Women, much more than men have fear. Fear of being unattractive. Fear of being hurt - also physically. Fear of being unable to survive alone.
As a woman, as soon as you enter puberty, everything seems to be about sex. Suddenly your body changes and apparently all the men are after you for it.
Your personality does not count anymore - everbody is interested only in your body now.
Every now and then you will try to open your heart for another person and most of the time you will get hurt terribly - this will lead to a massive fear of being honest with others.
It is one giant prejudice, that women are emotionally unstable and do not know what they want - you will notice this instability from time to time and you will start to believe that you cannot even rely on yourself - this will lead to a fear of being honest with yourself.
You will end up being constantly afraid of being hurt, of being alone, of being used, of being honest.

I strongly disagree with encouraging anybody to lie.
Lying is one of the main reason for so many of our problems.
It is much wiser to actually help our partner overcoming this dishonesty.
For this it more important to actually practice what we preach than the actual preaching of honesty itself.

About weichen's suggestions:
1. Show your partner that being honest with you and herself is nothing to be afraid of.
Be reliable and strong - trough your own honesty.
2. Do praise her - especially when she had the courage to be honest despite her fear of possible consequences.
3. Yes, be careful in language - but if a misunderstanding arises (will happen alot), IMMEDIATELY clarify the situation.
4. Raising one's voice can be extremly helpful. Yelling is not about being angry. Yelling can plow through the ego thoughtpatterns of your partner at times. Even buddhist monks use yelling and even a slap in the face in extreme situations, when they see that a disciple's perception is veiled by extreme fear and pain.
I do however not encourage physical violence at all - in any situation.
A loud voice is powerful enough.
Still be aware enough, not to yell out of anger.
5. See that she is not her behaviour. You can still love her while not accepting her behaviour.
Understand the reasons of her lying and be compassionate about it.
Also her dishonesty can contain lessons that life wants you to learn.
If you unconsciously are afraid of being lied to all the time, you will be lied to.
The world is your mirror. ;)

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Post by proudlybeing » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:34 pm

In this post,agnieszka said,-
Agnieszka wrote:I hardly ever lie. My ego feels sick even when I have to tell half-truth. I blush terribly.

I feel the same way here, and I would add who has the energy to lie anyway,?? one lie today, takes a lifetime of lies and worry about its implications to cover up, worry about what was said to who, and wether or not the lie was told to person 1 , or to person 2, or if they might talk about it. I am not being moralistic here or judging, its just my experience.
Lies surely are a great way for the egoistic mind to stay in control are they not? I personally feel that a lie told becomes a constant connection to the past and that itself is a blocker for enlightenment.

please don't get me wrong here, If there is a safety issue, or major negative implications to the truth, then some hard decicions have to be made, economy with the truth, can be usefull too.
I find that a lot of peoples lies are often because they are trying to be what they are not , and again this just stops us from 'being'.
i guess there will be some of you asking ,'do you mean to tell me ,proudly being, that you have never lied ?' , my answer to that is of course I have, I am no saint , but I do feel i have learned a valuable lesson, that clears the way to 'being'.
As for the gender debate ? I honestly have no view on this. bless you all P.B
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Post by Finbarr » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:54 pm

Enlightened men and women lie less than unenlightened ones! We are all living a lie if we are enslaved by the negative ego. I'd be cautious and skeptical to say categorically that women lie more than men. I think men and women relate to the world in radically different ways. They interpret reality in radically different ways. I am influenced in these matters greatly by David Deidas work and would highly recommend it to any of you who want more light on the man/woman thing.

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Post by eseward » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:23 pm

Finbarr wrote:We are all living a lie if we are enslaved by the negative ego.
Well said IMO, Finbarr. :)

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Post by Narz » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:03 pm

This type of blame and lack of personal responsibility is lame. :roll:

You could go back forever. Find any jerk guy you know and I'd be willing to bet his mother abused him in some way (probably his father too). Take any bitch you know and look at her father (and mother). You can go back forever. The only way out is personal responsibility. Both my mother & father were severely lacking, maybe that's why I'm lucky enough not to hate men or women. I just hate everyone. Just kidding. :D Seriously, people do the best they can based on their beliefs, men have done more evil maybe (because men are more active) but they've also done more good.

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Post by eseward » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:26 pm

Narz wrote:The only way out is personal responsibility.
Totally agree. Many folks don't want to hear this, of course. Vernon Howard says this repeatedly. :)

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Post by mad » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:10 am

Finbarr wrote:I think men and women relate to the world in radically different ways.
I would say that all human beings relate to the world in radically different ways, sex can be an issue, just like the culture one's raised's all about the story one carries through life that designs the way one acts in it.
I don't like to look at mankind as consisting of these two groups, men and women. I feel it creates a lot of unnecessary pain and misunderstanding.
This is of course all on the level of forms.... ;)

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Post by proudlybeing » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:08 pm

Thankyou mad , this was just what was neded here,
congratulations !! nice post .
My heart (and being) felt thanks to the force(es) than bring me to share this site and journey with you all.

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