Painful and long separation notice

Talk about relationships in the context of Spiritual Enlightenment
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Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Mon May 11, 2009 2:39 pm

My husband told me ten months ago that he wants to separate from me after our son goes to college. Our son is ready to go to college in two months. for the past 10 months i have tried everything i could to win my husband's love back. living together with him, his indifference, his lack of love and his unfaithfulness (he also had an affair 4 years ago and now he is dating other women) drove me to a pain beyond belief and so in February I started reading all of Eckhart's books and things have started to shift. or so i thought. but reading on this forum i realized that all of my desire to apply Eckhart's teaching were geared at winning my husband back. I had and have a very dense pain body which ruined my relationship and drove my husband to where he is now. I can see the pain he is going thru.
my point to all this is: i think I am unable to make any progress becouse i still live with my husband and have to go thru all the pain of seeing him distant, unloving and unfaithfull: my husband behaves like a house guest. he comes and goes, does not tellus here he goes and if we ask he does not reply. i also have to go thru the pain of not involving my son in all this, even if he knows, i am sure, what is going on. people tell me to leave the situation or tell my husband to leave. it does not matter if I only have 2 months left before my son goes to college. it is time for my husband to go. people also tell me that staying for my son is a great way for my husband to keep doing what he is doing and not taking responsibility. I, following Eckhart's teaching, am trying to accept what is. I feel deep love for my husband and cannot stand the idea of a life without him. if i give him space and master my presence, would that help my husband come out of his pain too?

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Sighclone » Mon May 11, 2009 10:46 pm

Welcome, nutrition. While I'm certain that you are experiencing serious agony, none of us here, reading in five minutes your story can offer a realistic "quick fix." So my advice is for you to get counseling. You are probably doing that. Now, having said that, and it being the most important thing anyone could say, I'll continue, with secondary comments:

You say:
feel deep love for my husband and cannot stand the idea of a life without him. if i give him space and master my presence, would that help my husband come out of his pain too?


Do you remember Eckhart's "trigger" observation: "I can't live with myself anymore."?? The idea of life without your husband, without your left ear, without your Lexus, etc. is exactly that -- an idea. It will have only as much power over you as you grant it.

Buy a copy of "The Sacred Mirror", edited by Prendergast. It is a collection of 13 essays by experienced clinical psychotherapists who use nondual "presence" in their therapy sessions. You may be able to schedule a session with one of them.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Tue May 12, 2009 9:22 am

Thank you Andy,
I realize it is difficult to give any answer and the answer can only come from presence. I think forums are interesting because people share and when they do that one always finds oneself in them as the pain we experience is not personal but universal.
I live Overseas and will not be able to access therapy sessions in the States.
In the past I have done therapy, couple conseling, etc... but to no avail.
I in fact believe that one of the many reasons I find Eckhard's teachings so powerful is because they to not use a therapy approach, which in my opinion creates more mind stuff. That said, I am sure that the approach you are suggesting is not the traditional one, but it would be hard to find in the country where i live.
I have a hard time understandig that not being able to live without my husband is just an idea. We have been married 20 years and have a child, a house together etc.. Those things are real, are not ideas. An idea is what I create and it happens in the future. There are also facts and I do share a lot of facts with my husband. They might not be good or bad, but they are what they are. NOt recognizing that would be denying which is another way to not feel the pain.
Relationships end because "all structures are unstable" . The interesting part is that people like my husband and like many of the husbands or partners I read about in this forum, are looking for a relationship to save them. They claim they do not feel love for us any more and/or that they never really loved us. One could said I am doing the same: I am looking for the relationship with my husband to save me. Maybe, however I also recognize that if I do not face the pain this relationship gives me, the next one will be much of the same. So why look for much of the same, when I can work on what I have already and also honor the child, house and other realities I have build with my husband all these years? Why throw all of that away to then end up with more of the same? Ideally, and i know this is not possible, i would like my husband too to come to this same realization.

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 12, 2009 9:41 am

nutrition -

You said you could not stand "the idea of a life without him." You said it was an idea...not me. My point was exactly that: it is an idea right now. There is a dim possibility that it might not even happen. But if it does, then and only then will it become real. Only then will it be present. Deal with it then, rather than spending any time on what it will or will not be "like," in long worry-sessions now. Eckhart talks at length about the folly of worrying about some possible event in the future.

Your husband's progress or lack of progress will be his own. At this point, he is unlikely to listen calmly and openly to any suggestions you have for him. We also do not know if divorce is a good or bad thing for you, your son, or him.

I am sympathetic with you during this difficult time - I had two divorces myself.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Tue May 12, 2009 12:18 pm

Andy,
I was just telling a friend a few minutes ago that I no longer worry!!! and then I read your message and it finally all made sense to me: all I have been doing IS worry since last July when husband announced his intention to separate.
I did not even get the idea behind the "idea" concept, that's how far into worrying i was. In fact, as you mention, it is just an idea till it actually happens. Chances are high, but it did not happen yet. So basically I spent months and months worrying and in deep pain. Fortunately that brough me to "discover" Eckhart's teaching, because without the unconsciousness i was in for a long while, I would have not been driven to awaken. and I am "in between" now, not fully awakened of course, so I will still experience lots of pain.
Then I guess my main practice would be to focus on the present moment. I still live with my husband and interacting with him daily has been my practice. What i notice, however, is that at times I mistake presence with heaviness. what I mean by that is: when I talk to my husband I become very serious as i intently listen to him and do not comment about what he says, as I do not judge him, or practice not doing so. I have to admit it is heavy and of course then my ego says: "see, you are not doing it right. there is notjoy in what you are doing ..."
Is it possible to feel joy in my situation?

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Sighclone » Wed May 13, 2009 9:45 pm

nutrition -
I have to admit it is heavy and of course then my ego says: "see, you are not doing it right. there is notjoy in what you are doing ..."
Is it possible to feel joy in my situation?
Whatever emotion arises is fine. Judge none of them. Not one. They are all fine. If you truly invite in your feelings, stay "with" the feeling rather than try to reject it, you will find that it has less ability to impact you (for good or for worse, by the way). Feelings, and the painbody they manifest through require nourishment by agreement and thought-food. Denying feelings actually strengthens them.

Check out thework.com which is Byron Katie's website. She is endorsed by Eckhart and has several books out about a cognitive method (Four questions and a turnaround) of approaching beliefs like "My husband should love me more." or "I suffer therefore I am doing it wrong." Her book which targets her technique is called "Loving what is" - try abebooks.com - they ship worldwide.

Expecting joy during this period may be unrealistic. But choosing presence is always an option.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Thu May 14, 2009 12:45 pm

Thank you Andy,
Sighclone wrote:They are all fine. If you truly invite in your feelings, stay "with" the feeling rather than try to reject it, you will find that it has less ability to impact you (for good or for worse, by the way). Feelings, and the painbody they manifest through require nourishment by agreement and thought-food. Denying feelings actually strengthens them.
this is something I would ask Eckhart if I ever have the good fortune to meet him: how do you totally stay with your feelings when you have in front of you the person who is causing them (in my case my husband) without showing your suffering. As you pointed out denying feelings actually strengthens them. So if I feel rejected by my husband and that gives me great pain how do I stay with it while he is there talking to me or at dinner? He will certainly notice that I am crying and that will really cause a lot of ego response from him. In other words, i have to repress my feelings most of the time. Same thing at work or in a shop etc..You really can't start crying or closing your eyes and concentrate on you breathing while you are with other people in social situations.
Is there a way to feel and not deny what you are feeling while you are with other people or really the best thing to do would be to excuse oneself, and find a quiet spot where you can sit and allow the feeling to be. (but this of course is not always possible)
Sighclone wrote: Byron Katie's website. She is endorsed by Eckhart and has several books out about a cognitive method (Four questions and a turnaround) of approaching beliefs
I am not being critical here, I am just confused now because I thought that the past is really not important and it is only when a situation brings it back in the now, but not an artificially constructed, on paper, situation (even if events really happened in the past, when recalled in the now they are just a bundle of thoughts=memories) but a 'Now" situation, such as rejetion from my husband now is also tied to me being rejected by my friends at age 6.
I am sure her approach is good, but cognitive has to do with the mind and lots of thinking. I notice she has people write things down. Eckhart's teachings really resonate with many. He discourages discussion after community meetings, visualizations, etc.., basically all things that have to do with creating more thought. I think simply not identifying with thought is what one needs to do and the past dies in the now not by going back into it. The past will resurface spontaneouly as events occur in the now, isn't this what Eckhart says?
I read in Byron Katie website the instructions on the Judge your neighbour worksheet
"Fill in the blanks below, writing about someone (dead or alive) you haven’t yet forgiven one hundred percent. Use short, simple sentences. Don’t censor yourself—try to fully experience the anger or pain as if the situation were occurring right now. Take this opportunity to express your judgments on paper."
I think this could work for someone, but again, i also think that these situations from the past will resurface at some point thru events in the now (plenty of opportunity!!) and there is no need to go and dig again. dealing with them in the now it is all that is needed without having to write it down, etc... I think this is the base of Eckhart's teaching.
Unless life does not give you much of an opportunity for this to happen and you live a relatively pleasant life where you need to go back to past events to become present.

blessings

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Sighclone » Thu May 14, 2009 6:03 pm

nutrition -

In my experience, "being with your feelings" may require solitude at first. Eckhart says that you either accept, change or depart a difficult circumstance. You could leave the room if your painbody or your husband's is activated. In a shop or public environment, that is not always possible. Activating Presence to dissolve painful feelings requires some practice. Please locate a copy of "Portals to Now" - an older ET CD. There are some exercises in there.

Byron Katie uses a cognitive technique to end the power of destructive beliefs which we drag with us through our lives, unconsciously. It's easy to say "discard the past." It's much harder to do. She offers a powerful tool. I feel it is unfair to discredit her technique before you have tried it.

I wish you well...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Fri May 15, 2009 9:20 am

Hi Andy and thank you.
A friend is coming to visit me from the states and I asked her to buy these for me as recommended on Eckhart's site
--Practicing the Power of Now: Essential Teachings, Meditations, and Exercises from The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle--Freedom from the Known by Jiddu Krishnamurti --The Diamond in Your Pocket: Discovering Your True Radiance by Gangaji --Passionate Presence by Catherine Ingram--Krishnamurti's Notebook

Would Practicing the Power of Now: Essential Teachings, Meditations, and Exercises from The Power of Now work as well as Portals to Now? Also, I have been listening to all of the Oprah/Eckhart webcasts. I also purchased the following downloads from Eckhart's site:
The Secret of Self Realization ;Deepest Truth of Human Existence ;Know That I Am
I would like to know if you could recommend more specific titles that would help me with my way into awakening.

I am quoting again my thoughts about BK. Before purchasing something i believe it is important to see if those teaching actually resonate with Eckhart's. Being on a very limited budget right now that is an important factor for me.
nutrition wrote:I am not being critical here, I am just confused now because I thought that the past is really not important and it is only when a situation brings it back in the now, but not an artificially constructed, on paper, situation (even if events really happened in the past, when recalled in the now they are just a bundle of thoughts=memories) but a 'Now" situation, such as rejetion from my husband now is also tied to me being rejected by my friends at age 6.
nutrition wrote:I think this could work for someone, but again, i also think that these situations from the past will resurface at some point thru events in the now (plenty of opportunity!!) and there is no need to go and dig again. dealing with them in the now it is all that is needed without having to write it down, etc... I think this is the base of Eckhart's teaching.
Andy, when you say that it's easy to say "discard the past." It's much harder to do. I have to go back to when you say "being with your feelings" may require solitude at first. I read this as meaning:being with your past, letting it be and so dissolving it may require solitude at first, because of the pain it causes. Again...this is really the essence of Eckhart's teaching. He has never suggested, as far as I am aware of (and I have read a lot and listened to a lot of his work) to write things down, because it envolves too much thought, too much mind activity. Again, he even recommends not too use visualizations.
That said I am sure BK is an excellent teacher especially because ET would not endorse her teachings if they were to come from unconsciouness.
I also feel that people who read the forum might find different opinions helpful.

Thank you Andy for helping me in this difficult times.

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Fri May 15, 2009 6:28 pm

would it be absolutely unaceptable to yes, forgive your husband for his adultery and still love him and want to stay in a relationship with him. Or, forgive him but, still love him, but end the relationship....friends keep telling me that the latter is the way to go, they are basically telling me to tell my husband to leave as there is too much past to stay present in a situation like this.

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Sighclone » Fri May 15, 2009 7:05 pm

nutrition -

You say:
I read this as meaning:being with your past, letting it be and so dissolving it may require solitude at first, because of the pain it causes.
Powerful feelings can arise anytime, but the opportunity to fully allow Presence to dissolve them generally requires some experience and "practice" if you will. In starting to do that, it is better to have a quiet place.'

I cannot know if the alternate texts will become portals for you, but virtually anything from Eckhart is valuable.

I cannot know what you should do with your marriage, but to say that in your heart, you will find the answer.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by nutrition » Wed May 20, 2009 9:53 am

Since I am in very deep pain now I am really trying anything i can.
I have been listening to BK both on podcast and youtube, but then a sudden realization came to me:
Basically what I am doing when I am "turning it around" is that I am creating a new thought which is equally true, or more true (?), than the original thought. But it is still a thought. I am still trapped in a belief
For example: "I never loved my mother," becomes "I never loved myself." and by the same token, how do I know for sure that I never loved myself? is this thought true? So:
Is this true?
Can you absolutely know that it's true?
How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?

Just as an example...I would be a lot better off without the thought that I never loved myself as much as I would be better off without the thought that my mother never loved me.

ET says that good thoughts are better than bad thoughts but he also adds that still...good has in itself the bad and vice versa. There is no good without bad: this is the destiny of polarities.
Also, once I know that i never loved myself, so what? what can I do now about it? doesn't it all boil down to not hanging on to thoughts, not dwelling on them? Basically I noticed that the turn-around boils down to reflecting back at me what I reflect into others, like a mirror. At the end I really come out totally guilt ridden and powerless about it. I am back to square one. Before I was blaming myself and my husband, mother etc.., now all the energy is really about blaming myself and only myself.
My problem is that I am totally into "thinking" that thoughts are what create the biggest problems for us no matter the nature of them. There is not thought that is true and we can't be sure of the truth of them no matter what the thought is. Basically, creating different thoughts does not seem to cut it for me as i question those as I questioned the original ones.
I have a strong feeling, however, that I am not doing this right. I know people have found BK teachings to be very helpful. Please let me know if you can open a window for me.
Thank you and blessings

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Robin » Wed May 20, 2009 12:06 pm

nutrition wrote:Since I am in very deep pain now I am really trying anything i can.
I have been listening to BK both on podcast and youtube, but then a sudden realization came to me:
Basically what I am doing when I am "turning it around" is that I am creating a new thought which is equally true, or more true (?), than the original thought. But it is still a thought. I am still trapped in a belief
For example: "I never loved my mother," becomes "I never loved myself." and by the same token, how do I know for sure that I never loved myself? is this thought true? So:
Is this true?
Can you absolutely know that it's true?
How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?

Just as an example...I would be a lot better off without the thought that I never loved myself as much as I would be better off without the thought that my mother never loved me.

ET says that good thoughts are better than bad thoughts but he also adds that still...good has in itself the bad and vice versa. There is no good without bad: this is the destiny of polarities.
Also, once I know that i never loved myself, so what? what can I do now about it? doesn't it all boil down to not hanging on to thoughts, not dwelling on them? Basically I noticed that the turn-around boils down to reflecting back at me what I reflect into others, like a mirror. At the end I really come out totally guilt ridden and powerless about it. I am back to square one. Before I was blaming myself and my husband, mother etc.., now all the energy is really about blaming myself and only myself.
My problem is that I am totally into "thinking" that thoughts are what create the biggest problems for us no matter the nature of them. There is not thought that is true and we can't be sure of the truth of them no matter what the thought is. Basically, creating different thoughts does not seem to cut it for me as i question those as I questioned the original ones.
I have a strong feeling, however, that I am not doing this right. I know people have found BK teachings to be very helpful. Please let me know if you can open a window for me.
Thank you and blessings

Hi nutrition,
I believe you went ahead a bit too fast. Read her first book and do it step by step. Doing it right you will never end up confused or blaming yourself.
ET and BK are using sometimes sayings from Jesus. He said some very good things which might help you in this case.

He gave a promise saying that the known truth will set you free. That means that something which is binding you is not the truth. BK technic done right will bring light to the dark thoughts and when you know the truth it will set you free. For me it would stop quite early if I start with the tought. I never loved my mother. Is it true? If I am honest I cant say that I never loved my mother, how does it make me feel believing that I never loved her? Well, I feel bad. Is there one reason for me to keep the thought alive believing it. No, only if I want to feel bad. Are there other thoughts maybe more right or equal right. I loved my mother sometimes. Yes, thats true that feels right. I never loved myself....is that true?
can I be absolutly know for sure that I never loved myself. No. How do I feel believing that thought, well, I feel bad. Is there a reason to believe it? etc

Read the first book from her and start it from the beginning and remember the known truth will set you free!

yours
Robin

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by karmarider » Wed May 20, 2009 4:34 pm

It's funny; we read ET and create all sorts of ideas about pain-body, acceptance, and so on. And we get confused because our idea of acceptance doesn't quite work in reality.

Acceptance is the absence of resistance to what is. It's doesn't mean you have to put up with your husband's manipulation. From what you have written, your husband has created a situation for himself where he can guiltlessly take advantage of you. Allowing him to to do that is not acceptance. Sure, love your husband, understand his pain, see that ultimately we are all blameless...but also protect yourself.

Don't feel guilty that you are seeking awakening because you want to get over pain. We all start on this journey with an egoic desire to get over pain, or to experience some sort of big-bang event called enlightenment, or accumulate wisdom or power. It's perfectly okay; at some point in your journey the egoic desire will morph into just Truth.

If you "master" presence, that will not help your husband. We cannot make others love us, or see things in the way we would like. From what I have experienced, presence in one person can actually be very frustrating for the other, because the other has lost his ability to manipulate. That's of course a generalization that may not fit your situation.

Some things you may want to look into: EFT, the Sedona Method, Byron Katie.

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Re: Painful and long separation notice

Post by Sighclone » Wed May 20, 2009 6:51 pm

Yes, obsessive thinking is the problem. My current favorite enlightened teacher is Gary Weber. His book "Happiness Beyond Thought" is available from his publisher iuniverse.com and elsewhere. This book is a series of techniques to lessen the grip of the mind. He is also available for personal contact; his email address is in the book. His work is based on extensive study, primarily focussed on Ramana Maharshi. He also writes for Ramana's ashram publication.

He has a PhD and was a major executive in a manufacturing industry - has a wife and daughter.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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