Every "awakened" one has an agenda

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Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby AnonyMouse » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:58 am

The agenda seems to be.. ultimately, to change what is being witnessed.
"A new earth"..
But don't you see that it's the ego that wants to change the world?
We shall all be nice to eachother, mellow, tender, warm, soft, innocent, loving, like cute little white lambs?
No!
Life is dangerous, wild and full of "evil"
A wild scary poisonous snake is beautiful too

I'm tired of hearing Tolle saying "identification with thought-processes" over and over and over again..
Is he a robot?
Why do so many people ("awakened ones") think they can transfer their own selfdiscovered personal truth unto others, with books, seminars, "teachings" and what-not?
Because they want to change the world, and they are not actually "awake", but want to be. Go to line #3
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby karmarider » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:55 am

If you're tired of Tolle, there are other awakened teachers who might appeal to you. I haven't listened to Tolle for five years. Awakened teachers provide guidance--that's all. You can find others. If you're in a place of self-reliance and are not identified with any particular teaching or belief--that's even better.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby kiki » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:29 pm

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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:56 pm

Every "awakened" one has an agenda...

But don't you see that it's the ego that wants to change the world?

That's a rather large brush you're painting with. I would generally agree with the second statement but not in context with the first. You can't know what 'every' awakened one's focus is.

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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby AnonyMouse » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:56 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
I would generally agree with the second statement but not in context with the first.
You can't know what 'every' awakened one's focus is.


True. But I only speak from my own perspective/experiences. In that perspective, everyone so-called awake seem to not be actually awake, but wanting to change themselves, others or the world. With huge intact but well-camouflaged egos.
Or maybe I could say it like this:
As I see it, awakening is mostly misunderstood or mis-used.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby AnonyMouse » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:12 pm

So what am I doing?
I think I'm actually now slowly rejecting other people's truths as my own. Not seeing awakened ones as authorities (I guess I did that a lot before)
Truth can only be very personal
It feels like a very important discovery in my own path

Kiki.. everything I said was far-off facepalm stupid? That's what I get from your response
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:21 pm

AnonyMouse wrote:As I see it, awakening is mostly misunderstood or mis-used.

Possibly true. What is your perspective of awake?

So what am I doing?
I think I'm actually now slowly rejecting other people's truths as my own. Not seeing awakened ones as authorities (I guess I did that a lot before)
Truth can only be very personal
It feels like a very important discovery in my own path


Now that's a good sign of awakening. :wink:

One of the great realizations of the path to awakening is that what matters most is your own direct understanding. The pointers gleaned from others can be helpful, but only to the degree that it stimulates understanding and clarity from your own perspective. There are no authorities better than your own inner guidance. Seek it out and trust it. Spend time in mentally quiet awareness, feeling the reality of your own beingness. It is in this quiet that alignment with your Source consciousness is regained and the foundation for inspiration is laid.

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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby kiki » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:06 am

So what am I doing?
I think I'm actually now slowly rejecting other people's truths as my own. Not seeing awakened ones as authorities (I guess I did that a lot before)
Truth can only be very personal
It feels like a very important discovery in my own path



All of this is good. Ultimately, you are your own authority. By that I mean that when you are simply resting as/in awareness, in true nature, that becomes your authority. Let that provide you the basis for insight to unfold on its own. WW has said the same thing in his most recent post, and I agree wholeheartedly. For emphasis of this point I will quote him here: "Spend time in mentally quiet awareness, feeling the reality of your own beingness. It is in this quiet that alignment with your Source consciousness is regained and the foundation for inspiration is laid."

Kiki.. everything I said was far-off facepalm stupid? That's what I get from your response


You have no idea if any "awakened" one has an agenda, yet you categorically stated that every "awakened" one has an agenda in your thread title, and then concluding in your thread that they all are ego driven to change what they see.

Why do so many people ("awakened ones") think they can transfer their own selfdiscovered personal truth unto others, with books, seminars, "teachings" and what-not?


I don't see them that way at all. It appears to me that they know they can't "transfer" anything, and can only at best provide useful pointers. A myriad of pointers are put out there because no one pointer gets through to everyone.

Because they want to change the world, and they are not actually "awake", but want to be.


That's your conclusion based on your own egoic perspective. From the perspective of clear silent awareness there are no expectations or hopes of any kind, and no desire to change anything, yet a person who embodies that perspective through their human-ness compassion for others is kindled, and so some awakened ones teach.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:11 am

I also sometimes wonder about what causes a spiritual teacher to "rise to the top" of his or her field.

It seems to me that this most likely wouldn't happen unless the person worked (directly or indirectly) to make the rising happen.

The important question for me is: To what end?

To be in a better position to help relieve the suffering of (a large number of) people?

Or: For the pleasure of being in a position of power/influence?

Spiritual teachers are human and, as such, imperfect beings. I think it's naive to assume they all have squeaky clean motives. And cynical to assume they all have agendas.
“At the still point of the turning world.” T. S. Eliot
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:36 am

I also sometimes wonder about what causes a spiritual teacher to "rise to the top" of his or her field.



Sometimes they are held aloft by others.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:12 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
I also sometimes wonder about what causes a spiritual teacher to "rise to the top" of his or her field.

Sometimes they are held aloft by others.

Yes. But they must make a decision, I think, to allow (encourage) this to happen.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby ZenCowgirl » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:29 pm

I think this is an important, subtle topic.

There is awareness - and there is action. Life is action. Life moves. So it can see to be moral, goal directed, to focus on one "thread" and to ignore others. Truth is ... truth. It does not move. But it can seem to flutter.

There is an interview of Cohen right now on www.batgap.com Apparently many have criticisms of Cohen - I didn't, so I listened to the first half with great glee. He describes well how a knock on the head as a child gave him a knowing some other, non-ordinary, realm. Then growing up occluded that realm for him - but still, inside somewhere he knew. Then meeting Poppa Ji before Poppa Ji was famous confirmed for him that yes, he knew something. Then how Poppa Ji differed from other gurus in INSISTING that we all know already, without traditional practices.

That part of the batgap interview was great. Then they got into this ... controversy that apparently surrounds Cohen ... and it touches on this realm of what is a teacher's agenda. In talking about that controversy, Cohen made one interesting point which is that if it is true or to the extent that it is true that we currently live in a culture where "waking up" is getting popularized, that exchanges between two people tend more often to provide mutual support to the two about their quest for "waking up" so that he sees it as a cultural thing, culture being that which is shared between two. Well, ok - but then that becomes his "agenda" - similar to Tolle's seeming agenda tacked onto his initial awareness of awareness.

So I think the kindest way to think of teachers' agenda is that teaching is indeed an act. And to act is to do - so it is to guide, to focus, to create something, to change. Even to make lunch and eat is is to presume to change the emptiness in our stomach. Why bother? Because are alive, and to be alive is to do.

The best we can say is that teaching awareness tends to (at least try) to be kind and is better than teaching, say, how to make bombs. But even as Cohen says in the batgap interview, sometimes in the middle of a teaching session when he gets into a state of fully seeing seeing, a little inner voice comes to him that says, so why teach? how go on with this session? why try to "convert" all these people here. He would have been more like Poppa Ji if he just stopped, right there. But he's playing a role as teacher - so you go on. You fill up an hour, or a weekend - whatever "the flock" paid for and expects.

To listen to the flutter of the truth is the subtlest thing of which the human actor is capable.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:41 pm

That's a great sharing in awareness zengirl.

If the goal of 'teaching' is to make a better world then yes it has an agenda because there would be some 'vision' of what that better world looked like, felt like, and it would encompass maybe power or influence over others because it would require something of others in order for it to be what the first imagines. It would be using the knowledge as a means to an end, which yes, is ego at work.

If however Tolle is saying the natural consequences of this knowledge unfolding and people becoming more aware of their thoughts etc will be a better world, that is not pushing or pulling but being aware of natural consequences, and not as an agenda.

The subtleties of the agenda one would hope in a subject like awareness one would be aware of the difference in sharing for sharing's sake, and sharing to further a personal agenda, even if that agenda is a better world.

We all collectively learn more, imagine more and therefore willingly allow more, because we share our experiences. The first person shares their wisdom - knowledge borne of experience and implemented with love. When this happens - when wisdom is implemented with love - others notice. And then they ask - how did you do that? Or, how do you do that? Why did/do you do that? others might then say 'What did you do? and so the 'sharing' or the lesson one to the other sharing their wisdom begins.

This is the natural process of our learning, from others who have experienced.

Yes that we've made an 'industry' out of this sharing is interesting, but it's always been a 'path' of someone in a community to gather the knowledge borne of (collective) experience and hand it on to others -the wise people, the Elders, the medicine man or healing woman, the one returned from an adventure has historically had a 'role' to play, a responsibility, within a group to share knowledge.

by rachMiel » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:12 pm
I also sometimes wonder about what causes a spiritual teacher to "rise to the top" of his or her field.

smiileyjen101 wrote: Sometimes they are held aloft by others.


Yes. But they must make a decision, I think, to allow (encourage) this to happen.


Rach, if you haven't seen Monty Python's Life of Brian movie I seriously recommend it, it is not only hilarious, it is very instructive in how group mentality can thwart a single person's path. In a way the Monty Python crew used to look at human nature's absurdities, so in a way they too were 'teachers' just more subtle and funny than most. Any sharing has the possibility of passing on wisdom. The value of the 'wisdom' is not set by the one sharing, but by those receiving it.

Having said that, yes the first must be willing to share and sometimes this can be a great ask on one just going about their business awarely. The calibre of the sharing itself, the awakened doing - in the ET sense of if there is acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm rather than making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end of a thing, this is palpable in the passing of any knowledge, in any interaction.

For me a wise person sharing wisdom can be as pure as a singer singing, or a healer healing, or a musician playing, a writer writing, an actor acting - the power, the enthusiasm is in the being the willing instrument of creation creating - being the hole in the flute through which the Christ breath flows, the external stuff is irrelevant, except that it can encroach on the pure process.

If someone sings because they want to be famous and rich, that is far different to singing because they have a song that needs to come out and that collectively others want to hear, which in turn makes them 'rich and famous'. The first is just cause and effect in our way of living in our society in the way our society has evolved the goal is to be famous and rich and will use whatever means to meet that end and sharing the 'talent' is secondary. The second the 'talent' is primary and the rich and famous if it happens so be it if it doesn't so be it, it's not taken personally if it comes or if it doesn't.

In my experience there are two paths in this - one is just awakened being / doing and sharing. In this case it's usually others who influence and harness and manage that creativity - in the sense of a singer is just happy to sing, but in order to just sing and to eat they need to trade something. We used to have societies that appreciated this and would collectively feed everyone and the artists, the healers, the wise people were fed in return for their sharing of their activities, these days the knowledge (or song or poem or any 'gift') is marketed in order yes initially to eat, to live. Then the group mentality or maybe yes the ego in some take over. Once your gift is turned into a career it takes on a life of its own and often the artist pays a very high price - some losing their sense of soul - in the process. It's no different for any 'wise person' who becomes a celebrity.


But yes, there has to be a 'willingness' to share in the first place. But if the energy is in the sharing it kind of carries itself and is no burden to the one sharing, there is no claim to the wisdom, there is no distortion or agenda about it, it is more being willing to be open, to be the hole the in the flute through which the Christ breath, be that a song, a wisdom, a performance a new idea ...anything in creation, flows. A mother does the same, does a mother allow a child to be born through her in order to profit egoically from that, or does she merely allow creation to come through her? Both could be true, it depends on the individual's understanding.

If one does employ ego to bring things into creation, suffering is inevitable because there's an agenda. If one is just sharing there is no suffering, there is only sharing.
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby Sunday7777 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:48 pm

I love this last post by smilingjen so much that I wanted to post here because I thought it was a beautiful explanation of creativity. Thank you smilingjen! I'm an artist and it's a blessing to create. Perhaps the painting sells, perhaps it doesn't.
It doesn't matter. I read eckhart tolle a few years ago and thought "yeah right whatever". It didn't speak to me at all.
But after some other experiences, pain, counseling etc., I heard him again and knew. Very shortly after I woke up. I don't have anxiety about creating anymore. Worrying about making money, or getting work published and establishing credentials and status, so funny!!! There is just the creating. Some drawings speak to some people. I have no ownership in that. I don't know anything about spiritual teaching but I imagine it is somewhat like that. You write the book or speak and if it is helpful people buy it. Money makes no difference anyway. A book is a joyful signpost, a tree is, the colour red, a dog's soft brown eyes, the laugh of a child, all the same. A painting or a book or a teaching is just another beautiful piece of the endless possibilities in the world. None are important yet all are precious. I'm writing a bit disjointedly because the feelings do not really translate well into writing. At least for me, since writing is not my talent. In drawing you make a line and if it's true there is a click in your head. Often you don't know how to draw something but you know when you have a good line. You know which lines are wrong as much as which ones are right but when the right ones come together all of a sudden you know what is true and wants to be "born" This is very different from "paint sunsets because that's what tourists like to buy"( advice from an art teacher! Lol) Its hard to speak about the awakening and art because you end up sounding drunk or spacey! But it's very true. Unless you experience it, you can't understand it but that's frustrating as well. I used to hate that kind of statement! So obnoxiously superior I thought. But it is quite true. Of course spiritual teachers will be critiqued for making money or trying to change the world. The awakened world and the commercial world are out of sync and misunderstandings occur because they see everything differently. I think changing the world is just a by product of waking up. Not the goal to cause the same for others but a nice occurance. A flower is a feast for your eyes and some have lovely scents as well. One person enjoys the sight, for another it's the perfume. The flower itself does not care. It is just expressing its fullness. If the viewer is filled with joy because of it? Is it the flowers fault? If some viewer thinks "I wish it was blue not pink"? Does not matter. The flower is true and real and alive. What it inspires depends on the state of the viewer. Some don't notice, some resent it, some covet it, some are jealous of its beauty. It doesn't matter. The flower is
still the flower. And all this is just my opinion, which doesn't matter either! Lol. Such a joy!
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Re: Every "awakened" one has an agenda

Postby monsta2005 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:26 pm

mmmmm interesting thread. I know its old, but my viewpoint is....we will never know. None of us are inside anothers mind, not just awakened individuals but further non-awakened. We really do not know who is awakened or not. Ramana Maharisihi is one of the few in recent times, if not only one, I considered truly awakened and without a hidden agenda within his earthly life. I came to the conclusion based on how he went about his life. Non commercially, people found him. Ive yet to see a flaw in the guy.
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