Who here is fully enlightened?

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Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sat May 16, 2009 11:41 pm

Perhaps, we need some context here within which enlightenment manifests. Enlightenment is simultaneously aware of both contents and context which one is in. The problem with the context is that its boundary is highly dependent upon one's awareness. The Field of Awareness is infinite; however, one's awareness is limited. One's context is, therefore, limited.

It is an enlightenment for an infant when it becomes first consciously self-aware. ET is enlightened when he got out his depressive state permanently due to the expansion of his personal awareness.

No individual self is able to be aware of the entire Awareness. Now we can confine Enlightenment to the maximum possible personal awareness of Awareness within human form. By this measure, only very few human beings have achieved this. They are the sources of great spirituality: Krishna, Gautama, Zoroaster, Jesus for example.

Jesus is a very special case. His origin is not in this egoic conscious domain we are all in.

By now, many of us must have learned the lesson that nothing is free in this egoic conscious domain. ET has to pay the karma price of being depressed in order to expand his awareness. Gautama paid his karma price to become a Buddha. Each moment of our life is a karmic exchange. Gautama did not earn enough karmic merits to declare whoever calls upon his name will be enlightened. However, he taught that Buddha Amita does have such merits. Krishna only earned enough karmic merits to declare whoever calls upon my name is mine.

Jesus comes from non-egoic conscious domain."I am not of this world." He earned enough karma merits here that whoever believes in him will have the chance to expand his/her awareness beyond this egoic conscious domain.

Enlightenment is expanding personal awareness beyond egoic conscious domain in a human form. Of course, one is always free to choose to limit one's awareness within this egoic consciousness.

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Webwanderer » Sun May 17, 2009 12:57 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote: Jesus is a very special case. His origin is not in this egoic conscious domain we are all in.

By now, many of us must have learned the lesson that nothing is free in this egoic conscious domain. ET has to pay the karma price of being depressed in order to expand his awareness. Gautama paid his karma price to become a Buddha. Each moment of our life is a karmic exchange. Gautama did not earn enough karmic merits to declare whoever calls upon his name will be enlightened. However, he taught that Buddha Amita does have such merits. Krishna only earned enough karmic merits to declare whoever calls upon my name is mine.

Jesus comes from non-egoic conscious domain."I am not of this world." He earned enough karma merits here that whoever believes in him will have the chance to expand his/her awareness beyond this egoic conscious domain.

Enlightenment is expanding personal awareness beyond egoic conscious domain in a human form. Of course, one is always free to choose to limit one's awareness within this egoic consciousness.
What makes this different than any other proclamation of religious exclusivity? Ask a devout member of any religion and you will likely get a similar statement of uniqueness based on tenets of their own belief system. This post is loaded with belief system ideology that is unverifiable through direct experience. Who can say with authority who has what "karmic credits" built up? The implication is that we should worship Jesus because He is special.

You mention the statement attributed to Jesus "I am not of this world". There is of course another similar statement "I am the light of the world". Was Jesus refering specifically to himself as being the way, or could he be refering to the "I am" sense in all of us being transcendant to the world of form? One must be taken on faith, the other may be known through direct experience.
He earned enough karma merits here that whoever believes in him will have the chance to expand his/her awareness beyond this egoic conscious domain.
Does this not imply that whoever does not believe in him has no chance of "expanding his/her awareness? Is this not the same position held by the religious faithful that non-believers will be be excluded?

WW

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 17, 2009 2:34 am

Does this not imply that whoever does not believe in him has no chance of "expanding his/her awareness? Is this not the same position held by the religious faithful that non-believers will be be excluded?
:lol: You can not help using your anti-religious armor when something is not tasty to your beliefs and understandings. Krisha, Gautama, Zoroaster all reached Enlightenment long before Jesus. And Huineng who did not know Jesus consciously reached Enlightenment after Jesus. Simple logic and reason are suffice to defeat your position.
Last edited by Tony-S-Ma on Sun May 17, 2009 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 17, 2009 2:48 am

What makes this different than any other proclamation of religious exclusivity? Ask a devout member of any religion and you will likely get a similar statement of uniqueness based on tenets of their own belief system. This post is loaded with belief system ideology that is unverifiable through direct experience. Who can say with authority who has what "karmic credits" built up? The implication is that we should worship Jesus because He is special.
You can not help chasing the busy implications generated by your mind, can not you? Now, all the practice of being now is out of the widow, isn't it?

Did I imply that we should worship Jesus, or you are imagining I implied so?

You have no way of knowing what I stated is a belief system; nor you are experienced enough to verify it directly. Have you ever directly experienced that Jesus is the light of the world? Or you simply have a understanding of Jesus' statement? Have you ever directly experienced Jesus is not of this world? Many in the awakening business are happy with understanding including understanding what it means by direct experience.

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Webwanderer » Sun May 17, 2009 5:47 am

It seems I've struck a nerve. Such angry attacks are worth some introspection however, unless of course you're certain you are justified.

WW

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 17, 2009 12:30 pm

What is being attacked? An idea? a belief? an understanding? a form :?: The awareness of WW :?: What you are :?:

What have been struck :?: Tony-S-Ma :?: Some statements by Tony-S-Ma? What Tony-S-Ma is? Perhaps the tail of Tony-S-Ma :lol:

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Webwanderer » Sun May 17, 2009 3:15 pm

What is being attacked?
What indeed? Just read your own posts. Or just look at them - they're filled with emoticons to express statements with emotional power. You use them as a weapon. It's similar to writing in all caps to express yelling. Rather than making the effort to explain your comments and educate those who question them from an attitude of sharing insightful realizations, you attack the questioner to put them on the defensive. The truth doesn't need any defense. It remains what it is. It's only an honest and open inquirey that can add to the clarity of awareness. I would hope that's why we're both here. But there's not much can be gained in an atmosphere of such aggressive competition, so I will leave you the winner and look for calmer waters.

WW

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Marcel Franke
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Marcel Franke » Sun May 17, 2009 6:53 pm

Dear Tony,

Tony:
> Jesus is a very special case.

Si, me too thinks he is such.
Sometimes I find the Bible a bit too puzzling.
Too bad they didn’t have YouTube in those days.

> His origin is not in this egoic conscious domain we are all in.

Yes, but not only that, to me he seems very intelligent.
My favourite story is the one about the adulterous wife.
He wants to help this Woman,
and he is faced with an angry mob that wants to stone her.
Now, - I - would get quite nervous.
I would probably say something stupid like: “Please, guys, don’t stone her.”
Or even more stupid: “Oy, piss off !”
But not Jezus.
He keeps his cool, and gives a very quick and hyper intelligent answer.
Great guy !

Godspeed,
MF.
---ooOoo---

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 17, 2009 7:37 pm

It remains what it is. It's only an honest and open inquirey that can add to the clarity of awareness. I would hope that's why we're both here.
I am sorry WW, I do not share with you the same purpose here. I am also sorry that I used you as a practicing target.
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Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 17, 2009 8:30 pm

Dear MF,

I have read many Zen stories in Chinese, many Zen masters were very clever in their dealing with inquiries of smart students. Eventually, the students became humble before the masters.

I prided myself being a very smart person since I was very young because it was very easy for me to pick up almost every subject taught to me. I admired many who were smart and intelligent, but only Jesus humbled me as a human being. I was once misled by Gautama's statement about God, and I was never truly humbled by him even though I experimented with Buddhism. In my life experience, only humility can lead me to true learning.

I wish people to understand that I am not here to peach Jesus or to bringing people to the Lord. I have long learned that each is free to choose. Since I have been on the path of free choice, I wish everybody is free from the slavery of personal beliefs, understandings, and experiences.

Incidentally, one must go through personal beliefs, understandings and experiences in order to be free. There is no direct path, quick method, and magical moment. One aspect of learning is going through hardship; however, I am not saying one must go through hardship in order to learn. I did not go through any hardship in the standard education system. Hardship in real life opens the path of awakening to me.

I wish to point out somehow that if one wish to keep going on the path of awakening, one must, sooner or later, recognize that hardship also opens up doors to Awareness. I have no intention here to dash the hope for happiness for many awakening seekers. To me happiness comes when a door of Awareness is open.

I can not help stating that the first time I experienced consciously an opening of Awareness was when I was totally humbled by Jesus.

Gratefully

Tony

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by CamPaz » Mon May 25, 2009 3:50 am

Want to see a a fully enlightened person respond to an angry person? This video is truly amazing and innovative. I created it with Jim Dreaver, an awakened teacher. It is a completely improvised scene that shows how he reacts to a person who is angry at him for leaning on his car. I promise you will not be sorry you clicked on this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLC0bfkG24k

This is a part of a show I am developing called, To Taste Enlightenment.

I hope you enjoy.

Love,
Cameron

P.S. Jim is a non-duality teacher who focuses on the idea that we are not our stories, bodies, minds, but pure luminous, ever-present consciousness. I think you'll like him.

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon May 25, 2009 5:21 pm

I certainly like Jim Dreaver and the first part of the dialog, but the improvised scene left a lot to be desired. You can't make this stuff up on the fly. Real world issues have a totally different dynamic. Not that presence can't have a dramitic affect on them (it can), but one cannot so easily pretend genuine emotional energy and the intellectual/ego trap it can form.

WW

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Glycine » Mon May 25, 2009 6:11 pm

CamPaz wrote:P.S. Jim is a non-duality teacher who focuses on the idea that we are not our stories, bodies, minds, but pure luminous, ever-present consciousness.
This really sounds like replacing a story with another story!
It's an annoying paradox: as soon as we start describing what we are, we are just creating another story and another identification - not necessarily more valid than the previous one... Maybe just as valid...
Nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with creating a new story/identification. We have the need to discuss, just as we have the need to build.

You may have to use a hidden camera and random angry individuals if you want genuine reactions. Sort of "Just for Laughs" gags.

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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by CamPaz » Tue May 26, 2009 1:40 am

You know, possibly during this coming week, I can invite Jim to respond to your comments. He is very willing.

Also, I encourage you to look again at the video. I think it may be hard to see just how powerful the scene is, how real it is. Jim's compassion made me, as an actor, unable to go any further with anger. It completely surprised me when I was in the moment. Before, I had plans to berate him and say all sorts of bad things and then I walked up to him angrily and he responded so calmly and genuinely and my anger just faded away. It was an eye opening experience. I will be making more scenes with more intensity than this in the future. I hope you will tune in for those.

Cameron

Glycine
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Re: Who here is fully enlightened?

Post by Glycine » Tue May 26, 2009 2:03 am

I will certainly watch the other videos. Ideally, neither Jim nor the "angry individual" should know they are being taped.
Anyway, everything I say is just a limited point of view.

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