It's Simpler Than You Think

Forum rules
In this category please do not start new topics that aren't directly related to Awakening / Spiritual Enlightenment / Truth-Realization.
Testigo
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:47 pm
Location: Helsinki

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by Testigo » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:10 pm

Thank you, Kiki. I have recorded this wonderful text to listen to it many times. I just changed your name and used mine instead.
TESTIGO

To land Here and Now

ishmaelisahab
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by ishmaelisahab » Wed May 08, 2013 6:55 pm

Enlightenment is the realization that Everthing anyone thinks or believes, all judgement and opinion... are all bullshit. Its a fantasy. Enlightenment is truth realization. Not a state or something or somewhere. Its when you burn down everthing you think and believe until nothing is left and you realize "you" don't exist outside of the illusion. You have to trade everything including your feelings,judgements, opinions and knowledge for enlightenment. Once you do this truly Nothing is left and you wake up. Now is this really what you want. Sure theres no fear, anxiety, loss, grief left but there's also no excitement , happiness, loyalty, morality, joy left either. You will truly be alone. No connections to people you won't even understand them. Now I'm not saying its bad or good and there is no way you will be able to get an accurate picture of what I mean until you burn it all down and wake the fuck up. Get clear on what you want or you may spend the rest of your life playing with candles, crystals, incense and meditationand not take one step toward the real thing. ..... kiki are you implying that you are awake I'm just curious. Btw to anyone who thinks they want to wake up read Spiritual enlightenment the damndest thing by jed mckenna. Its the only accurate description of being awake I've ever read. All the rest is poetic masturbation. Also kill the buddha or you'll never wake up

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by kiki » Tue May 14, 2013 1:11 am

Ishmaelisahab wrote:Enlightenment is the realization that Everthing anyone thinks or believes, all judgement and opinion... are all bullshit. Its a fantasy.
That's right.
Enlightenment is truth realization. Not a state or something or somewhere.


Yup.
Its when you burn down everthing you think and believe until nothing is left and you realize "you" don't exist outside of the illusion.


Who is doing the burning if there is no "you"? Just see that there is no you and the identification with beliefs will whither away. Once that identification dissolves beliefs seldom arise, but if/when they do they will be recognized as the illusions that they are.
You have to trade everything including your feelings,judgements, opinions and knowledge for enlightenment.


All of that can arise, but they have nothing to do with a separate entity because you as a separate entity do not exist. Thoughts come and go all by themselves, so let them come and go. Just because they arise doesn't mean they have to be believed. That's the error that gives the impression that they belong to "me". They don't belong to anyone.
Once you do this truly Nothing is left and you wake up.


Awakeness is already the case, it's just not seen with clarity because attention tends to be focused on the things, ideas, and beliefs that arise within one's formless nature.
Now is this really what you want. Sure theres no fear, anxiety, loss, grief left but there's also no excitement , happiness, loyalty, morality, joy left either. You will truly be alone. No connections to people you won't even understand them.
The connection to everything remains because you are all of it. The error is thinking or believing that you are one side of the coin. You are the entire coin, not just one side of it. No thing can exist without the formless foundation of reality, "that" which never changes, whatever that is. When you wake up there is no longer a mistaken notion that anything is separate from you.

You will understand other people after awakening, but you won't get caught up in the bullshit they are telling themselves. What's the point of being awake if you didn't understand anyone, or recognize what is truth and what isn't? Being awake doesn't mean you will be in a stupor, ignorant of what's happening in and around you; you will be AWAKE to all of it, cognizant of what's happening, but no longer swayed by any of it.

If you cut yourself off from everything in the world of form because "none of it is you" then you will become lost in the absolute. That's when dryness settles in. Live life as it is and enjoy all of it. In other words, be balanced; not only are you the absolute you are everything else as well. And since we seem to be living in a world of form learn to appreciate all of it to your heart's content, but with discernment, not becoming lost in either the world of form or the formless. You are all of it! If this isn't recognized then you really aren't awake to everything. Most people are only awake to the world of forms, but remain ignorant of their formless nature, and that's why they suffer.

And if you are awake to your formless nature but deny the world of forms you will become stuck there, and life will seem dry. This is when nihilism can begin to show up. The world of forms is where the "juice" is. Drink in the juice while remaining aware of the formless, enjoying all of it.
Now I'm not saying its bad or good and there is no way you will be able to get an accurate picture of what I mean until you burn it all down and wake the fuck up. Get clear on what you want or you may spend the rest of your life playing with candles, crystals, incense and meditationand not take one step toward the real thing.


Lots of completely useless activities are pursued in the hopes they will awaken you. Forget about all of them if awakening interests you. Just see what's true and what isn't in this very moment, the only moment that exists. Whatever this is right here, right now is reality; all of it, the formless as well as the forms.
..... kiki are you implying that you are awake I'm just curious.
I see with clarity what's true and what isn't. I no longer get fooled into identifying with anything, or believing any story about myself. Thoughts, when they come, tend to be of a practical nature, and when they aren't needed they are mostly absent. When they do come, however, I can see them for what they are. At times they are necessary, as in composing this post. In this case those thoughts are not noisy and distracting. When talking about "this" it's helpful to be still and alert and let the words compose themselves, arising out of that stillness rather than from conditioned thinking. In that way they are authentically "yours" rather than someone else's ideas. Just repeating what others have said isn't worth much; you've got to find your own voice based on direct experience. When you can do this then you are expressing meaningful truth because you see and live it yourself. People have been buying others' truth by the truckload for far too long, so it's time to find truth for yourself and then put words to it, words arising from the truth of one's being rather than from memory, book, or teacher.
Btw to anyone who thinks they want to wake up read Spiritual enlightenment the damndest thing by jed mckenna. Its the only accurate description of being awake I've ever read.
I loved Jed's first book, and many here have read it. I was disappointed with the second and haven't read anything else by him.
All the rest is poetic masturbation.
Granted, there is a lot of garbage out there when it comes to awakening teachings.
Also kill the buddha or you'll never wake
Any buddha outside yourself is worthy of being slain, so don't get fooled into believing what anyone says (even me), no matter how they are viewed by others. This goes for all the teachers, all the "enlightened ones", and all the authors who are selling their books to people who think they want to awaken. It all boils down to you finding truth for yourself. The best anyone can do for another is point with clarity and precision to that which is, and allow that to gestate in them so that things can happen in a natural and spontaneous way. None of this can be forced, none of it can be made to happen any faster than it's already happening, and no one needs to rely on another to awaken. You are already awake, but you just don't know it yet. It's more a matter of seeing HOW you seem to be keeping yourself ignorant of your fundamental nature. Recognize what's obstructing clarity and see through it rather than trying to get rid of it, and then be intimate with all of it.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---
Your donation will help keep us online.

User avatar
Salem
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 8:03 am
Location: USA

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by Salem » Tue May 14, 2013 2:33 am

kiki wrote:And if you are awake to your formless nature but deny the world of forms you will become stuck there, and life will seem dry. This is when nihilism can begin to show up. The world of forms is where the "juice" is. Drink in the juice while remaining aware of the formless, enjoying all of it.
Kiki, just a quick question: You said that you see things with clarity. If there can be any point to awakening, it would be this. So how could a belief in nihilism set in? Wouldn't it be seen as just a thought immediately as well?
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by kiki » Tue May 14, 2013 4:45 am

You said that you see things with clarity. If there can be any point to awakening, it would be this. So how could a belief in nihilism set in? Wouldn't it be seen as just a thought immediately as well?
I'd hope so, but it's not uncommon for people to discover the formless and hide out there by denying the actuality of one's life as it appears here now. Life "out there" is messy, complicated and scary, while life "in here" is safe and quiet. A preference can set in for the quiet and serene formless nature of reality. People can swap identification soley with forms to identifying soley with formlessness. So getting stuck in the absolute by denying the world of forms may lead to nihilistic ideas that the mind can latch onto and then deprive one of living life fully.

"What's the point of going on if only the formless is real?" and "where's the joy in life?" type thinking can set in. This is denial of reality as a whole. That's why you hear some people saying that "waking up" isn't the end, it's just the beginning. Yes, it's the end of seeking, but the journey within the world of forms while realizing formlessness is just beginning, and it continues until the body finally dies. Between those two events live life by being engaged with it on the level of form while experiencing the formless nature of reality. That's the cosmic dance, the one formless nature of reality dancing with seemingly separate forms, but it's all one life. There is no one leading the dance, no one to guide the events on the floor. It's simply both sides of the coin living in the harmony of oneness as the oneness.

The being-ness/presence/formlessness/you is not separate from any form, even the ones we don't particularly like. What else can nondualism be other than this? There is only one thing, and you are it, all of it - you are the ying as well as the yang, both sides of the coin, form as well as formlessness. If you simply sit and meet everything that arises, without labeling any of it, notice also the presence of your formless reality, the "presence of life" that simply knows. Then there is a sweetness to everything. This is hard to put into words, but it's like a nonthinking attitude/awareness that feels and realizes, "Yes, I am even that," no matter what "that" is. There is an absolute acceptance of it all when it's realized that all forms reflect true nature. There is no denial of anything at all. This may take some time to recognize and to finally integrate into daily life, but that's just the way it is.

So even if nihilism sets in that's just another expression of life through an apparent individual. In reality, however, no actual individual even exists. The thing with nihilism, however, even though there is no actual individual entity it's a rather dry and boring existence, and even a depressing one because something is being overlooked or denied. Discover the joy by seeing it all clearly. See/feel/experience the formlessness within the form.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---
Your donation will help keep us online.

User avatar
ashley72
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by ashley72 » Tue May 14, 2013 12:35 pm

ishmaelisahab wrote:Enlightenment is the realization that Everthing anyone thinks or believes, all judgement and opinion... are all bullshit. Its a fantasy.
The above statement "Everything anyone thinks or believes, all judgements and opinion...are all bullshit" is self-referential and suffers from the same paradox as the statement.... "This statement is false."

It's nonsensical or illogical to state a belief about all beliefs (self referential), and at the same time redefine its own context from true => false

Sorry, but I just could not stop myself from making a judgement about a judgement. :lol:

BTW, I couldn't imagine a world without thinking or symbolism.... We would loose what it is to be human... meaning, creativity & expression.

For starters where would be without the deep wisdom of Art like this.... Which points out the treachery of images.

Image

This Art work is so wonderful because it expresses the ambiguous and multi-faceted nature of matter itself. In other words, we know too well from experience that, though things are often as they seem, at other times they are not as they seem.

runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by runstrails » Tue May 14, 2013 3:11 pm

Kiki,
Your last two posts were very insightful and this is an important discussion.

My experience is that I tend to get caught up in the formless. It's so satisfying to just be. But I do realize that in the end, it's an escape too. But when you've realized form as 'illusory' then it's just not that interesting anymore. Have you ever dealt with this?

The two sides of a coin is a good way to think of it. But are form and formless really analogous? Form is formless, that much is clear. But the appearance (form) itself does not seem to be that essential. When I was completely unawake, I would be mesmerized by the news of distant galaxies or strange creatures in the darkest depths of the sea. Now when I hear, I think, oh yeah--mildly interesting. Formless can manifest as anything you can possibly imagine--so what's the big deal?. It's like watching a movie, for a while its interesting, but I can't sustain that level of interest all the time. It just seems too much like positive thinking...."I must enjoy all this vast manifestation", "I must be creative"....etc..etc...It all seems like too much effort to take form seriously.

I suppose awakening is colored by personality and mine tends to be naturally dour :lol:.

Anyway, I'd love any input.

Edited to add: I think I might have answered my own question.
I just came back from my morning trail run. I was happy to admire all form that I encountered...the song of the chickadees, the buzzing of the grasshoppers, the rustling of the grass, the gentle howling of the wind in the canyons. Then it occurred to me that the stillness of nature helps me connect with the formless. That's the kind of form that I love.

On the other hand, the mind-made manifestations of form seem to reinforce the mind identified aspects of me and so I naturally am a little averse to them.
Most form that I encounter in everyday mundane living (career, commute, errands) seems to take me away from stillness and into mind. For these kinds of form, seeing through their illusory nature, is a good reminder of the formless.

randomguy
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by randomguy » Tue May 14, 2013 5:05 pm

kiki wrote:It all boils down to you finding truth for yourself.
^ That ^
ash wrote:"This statement is false."

Is there a paradox? Or is there is only a perceived conflict when the conclusion that this statement is also true is believed? What if all statements were unweighted of truth? What would life experience be like if all statements, notions, ideas and thoughts were unworthy of belief?
trails wrote:It's so satisfying to just be. But I do realize that in the end, it's an escape too.
If I were to have this thought I might explore to what boundary is the escape? For example, what is escaping from what? Is there really an escape from the present moment?

...

What can be lacking of fullness? Is a nihilistic view indicative of a less full moment? Are the twisted trees at timberline less full than the well watered tree in the garden?
Shankara:
The world is an illusion
Brahman alone is real
Brahman is the world
Seems to me it is good to see that Brahman alone is real, when that is the perspective, when that is the way of seeing.
Seems to me it is good to see that Brahman is the world, when that is the perspective, when that is the way of seeing.
It seems to me even in suffering there is fullness.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by runstrails » Tue May 14, 2013 5:17 pm

Very nice post, randomguy. Totally resonates with me. I agree that there is no reason that we should see the truth any particular way at all.

User avatar
ashley72
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by ashley72 » Wed May 15, 2013 12:07 am

randomguy wrote:
ash wrote:"This statement is false."

Is there a paradox? Or is there is only a perceived conflict when the conclusion that this statement is also true is believed? What if all statements were unweighted of truth? What would life experience be like if all statements, notions, ideas and thoughts were unworthy of belief?
A paradox means ambiguity... and yes this statement has the ability to express more than 1 interpretation.

But what of life?....There is approximately 7 billion people living on this planet and each one of those persons has a unique perspective. Therefore, human nature is inherently faced with a multi-faceted truth. We can find ambiguity of perception in every square inch of this planet!

"Context" is the central figure that plays a major role in resolving ambiguity. How often do you hear another person being
cited out of context? Whereby one individual statement or idea is plucked from its surrounding paragraph.... and replaced with a new paragraph.

Self-reference was cited here... Because its a "classic" example of shifting context.... because at its very core symbolic thought is self-referential & loops back on itself.
Shankara:
The world is an illusion
Brahman alone is real
Brahman is the world
BTW, I could re-interpret this pointer as...

The world is multi-faceted and ambiguous
Yet each of us, holds a unique perspective of the multi-faceted one

randomguy
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by randomguy » Wed May 15, 2013 2:49 pm

Ashley, I responded in Multi-faceted truth
runstrails wrote:Very nice post, randomguy. Totally resonates with me.
I'm happy to hear it, trails.
Last edited by randomguy on Thu May 16, 2013 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

snowheight
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by snowheight » Wed May 15, 2013 5:04 pm

ishmaelisahab wrote:Enlightenment is the realization that Everthing anyone thinks or believes, all judgement and opinion... are all bullshit. Its a fantasy. Enlightenment is truth realization. Not a state or something or somewhere. Its when you burn down everthing you think and believe until nothing is left and you realize "you" don't exist outside of the illusion. You have to trade everything including your feelings,judgements, opinions and knowledge for enlightenment. Once you do this truly Nothing is left and you wake up. Now is this really what you want. Sure theres no fear, anxiety, loss, grief left but there's also no excitement , happiness, loyalty, morality, joy left either. You will truly be alone. No connections to people you won't even understand them. Now I'm not saying its bad or good and there is no way you will be able to get an accurate picture of what I mean until you burn it all down and wake the fuck up. Get clear on what you want or you may spend the rest of your life playing with candles, crystals, incense and meditationand not take one step toward the real thing. ..... kiki are you implying that you are awake I'm just curious. Btw to anyone who thinks they want to wake up read Spiritual enlightenment the damndest thing by jed mckenna. Its the only accurate description of being awake I've ever read. All the rest is poetic masturbation. Also kill the buddha or you'll never wake up
know that you know nothing
and then you'll hear the world sing
know there's nothing to know
nowhen to be nowhere to go

agressions mark is telling
to giggle at the yelling
is the mark of sanity
funny question, you or me?

so light yourself a candle
don't trip on beads or sandals!
fire up some incense
to rid the smell of those insensed

Ishmael or Ahab?
quick! dial up a rehab!
Self-Inquiry-Anonymous
is hamster wheel's eponymous!

either/or and both/and
just wisps of smoke and mind sand
maps that lead to broken bridges
roads that fade away to riches

U-Rex, C-Rex, T-Rex?
seems a word
without a meaning
is toward the bank to be leaning
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

User avatar
rideforever
Posts: 1513
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:32 pm
Location: Hove

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by rideforever » Wed May 15, 2013 6:21 pm

ishmaelisahab wrote:Enlightenment is the realization that Everthing anyone thinks or believes, all judgement and opinion... are all bullshit. Its a fantasy. Enlightenment is truth realization. Not a state or something or somewhere. Its when you burn down everthing you think and believe until nothing is left and you realize "you" don't exist outside of the illusion. You have to trade everything including your feelings,judgements, opinions and knowledge for enlightenment. Once you do this truly Nothing is left and you wake up. Now is this really what you want. Sure theres no fear, anxiety, loss, grief left but there's also no excitement , happiness, loyalty, morality, joy left either. You will truly be alone.
Well, there are a number of people who think differently. Padmasambhava, Bodhi-dharma, Buddha, Osho ...

They weren't so miserable about it !!! They described a very profound golden life.

Where is the love in what you say ? Where is the love in Jed McKenna ? What's his message ... ... it's all bullshit, it's terrible, it's horrible, and when you wake up it's awful ...

That would be a message of somebody who is stuck in an idea.

I agree that there may be 30 enlightened people on the planet, and that there is a lot of BS about it, all crystals and "feeeling good". But on the other side there is also a lot of "BS", doom and gloom ...

One half of the population thinks there is going to be Armaggeddon. The other half thinks there is going to be The Shift of global awakening.

It's just the same thing.

I think what happens to some people is they have some kind of realisation ... and then they just stop there and declare they are enlightened. But there are hiding places still. It's easy to be stuck in one.

And I think this culture we live in is as damaged as it has ever been, and there is not much in the way of a gentle sliding into awakening. Yes, there is lots of freedom and information, but the damage in the culture polarises your journey.

The transformation is very vast, and it's easy to see how a guy looking on the internet and doing some self-discovery, may get stuck, feel negative, feel lonely, isolated and hollow. That was the reason why the old way was to have a teacher, a group, a training.

In my case I find that trying to eliminate negative emotions can very powerful.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by kiki » Wed May 15, 2013 7:25 pm

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and make statements, observations, and judgments about everyone else who has something to share about awakening, however valid they may seem to you, but what can you contribute yourself to help others awaken? Can you share something of your own journey, what has worked for you and what hasn't? What practices, if any, do you find helpful? What insights have you had based on what you've found can you share?

How do you eliminate negative emotions? What's your approach? Others may find your approach to be useful as well, so tell us about it.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---
Your donation will help keep us online.

User avatar
treasuretheday
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:42 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA, USA

Re: It's Simpler Than You Think

Post by treasuretheday » Wed May 15, 2013 10:04 pm

I'm a neophyte, but the recognition,
rideforever wrote:They weren't so miserable about it !!! They described a very profound golden life.
was a contribution that embraced the perfection of what is.
rideforever wrote:a message of somebody who is stuck in an idea.
Was a contribution that reminded me that we all can get stuck in ideas! We all can miss the aliveness that is right here now. (A helpful & important reminder, imo, not judgement or condemnation). I hear the powerful realization that we are not seekers of a spiritual experience, we are a spiritual experience! Experience this. Everything is sacred.

I would like to hear more about:
rideforever wrote:In my case I find that trying to eliminate negative emotions can very powerful.
Life itself is the proper binge.
-Julia Child

Post Reply