What's up with my dinner guests?

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Quinn
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by Quinn » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:33 am

karmarider wrote: Maya is a bitch.
:lol: If you ever write a book, this would make a great title.

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by karmarider » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:29 pm

:)

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gen6
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by gen6 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:02 pm

karmarider wrote:Everyone suffers. The ones who think they don't have just decided that this is the way life has to be.

People learn to constrain their experience of extremes. Through religion or spirituality or passionate hobbies or work or purpose or the validation of conventional success they constrain their suffering. Some even constrain their experience through practices of awakening.
Brave claim. What do you exactly mean when you use the word ,,suffering,, , ,,suffers,, . What defines when a person is suffering or not?
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by gen6 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:15 pm

Quinn wrote:
gen6 wrote:It's not odd dear...your relatives and friends are OK just the way they are and probably better than you because don't think too much about the things you think about, namely these things that bring you some kind of suffering.
Hard to know what people think about, and harder still to know the troubling thoughts they have that are stuffed beneath the surface. Everyone I know on a deep level (i.e. not acquaintances) suffers over something. And most of them don't appear to be suffering. But they are. So...can't accept "probably better than you".
“Judging” by the animated conversations of the dozen or so relatives and other dinner guests last night, it appears that I was the only person who has caught a glimpse of this self-realization deal. How in the world is this possible? Other than my 52 year old cousin in the late stages of Hepatitis C (got it from a blood transfusion in her native country 23 years ago) everyone’s dreams and hopes appeared to be intact, not shattered like my cousin’s or mine. If reincarnation does not exist, and if my dinner guests do not become self-realized before they die, what is the purpose of their existence then? Why would Source need to experience this kind of delusion through billion of humans day after day?
I think what I said is valid in regards to what she said. She thinks she's special somehow, that she has caught a glimpse of something that she calls self-realization deal and she thinks that others are not like her, and if they do not become like her, she asks the question - what is the purpose of their existence?
She believs that everybody must be like her, ie in the self-realization deal (illusion), otherwise their existence is meaningless.
Don't you see how she draws a line between her and others, the seperation? She's in illusion that she something more than the others....and if they don't become like her, they must be suffering or ...what is purpose of their existence?
She's the only one having these thoughts and the made a topic, this means she's confused, or the thoughts aren't making her feel any better.
Other people are ok, they don't have such thoughts, and they are not in a negative state by these thoughts. And probably they are better than her in that way, they don't draw the seperation line, the only one who does is she.
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Natalie
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by Natalie » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:26 pm

She thinks she's special somehow, that she has caught a glimpse of something that she calls self-realization deal and she thinks that others are not like her, and if they do not become like her, she asks the question - what is the purpose of their existence? She believs that everybody must be like her, ie in the self-realization deal (illusion), otherwise their existence is meaningless.
I was the only one there who no longer believes that thoughts or emotions are real, and the only one who has experienced liberation from the bondage of thoughts and emotions. Realizing this that night did not make me feel special, on the contrary, I felt confused and asked myself: How can this be? Why is this so rare? Why do millions and millions of people don’t get to experience this amazing freedom before they die? Why me out of all these people? Is it because I am the one with the apparent heaviest burden? There were no feelings of superiority of specialness associated to this realization. Just flat out confusion, hence my post of the following morning.


Don't you see how she draws a line between her and others, the seperation? She's in illusion that she something more than the others....and if they don't become like her, they must be suffering or ...what is purpose of their existence?
She's the only one having these thoughts and the made a topic, this means she's confused, or the thoughts aren't making her feel any better.
Other people are ok, they don't have such thoughts, and they are not in a negative state by these thoughts. And probably they are better than her in that way, they don't draw the seperation line, the only one who does is she.
I only claim to have woken up from the dream (nightmare) my life was before I was exposed to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. I make no others claims. I believe there is a difference between having woken up from a profound state of unconsciousness and abiding in the state Eckhart Tolle has reached, for example. I may be wrong but this is how it “feels” to me at this time.

I understand I may get carried away expressing this wonderful new feeling of freedom from who I thought I was and what I thought my life was. English is not my primary language and that may play a part too.

Peace 8)

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by runstrails » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:45 pm

No one who has really read Natalie's posts could accuse her of egoic superiority or a spiritualized ego. Like Natalie, as one who has suffered, I often wonder what life is like for people who appear not to suffer. I'm especially curious, since my husband is one such person. He takes even the worst circumstances in stride and has such natural clarity. But everyone suffers, whether they label it as that or not. Have you noticed that suffering and being able to accept it with clarity allows one to have tremendous compassion for others. It's one of the 'benefits' of suffering :D

On the other hand, gen6, there is very little compassion in your posts. Can there be an awakening that does not result in compassion?

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by gen6 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:18 pm

Well, indirectly she implies that she is something more, not directly but indirectly, she says that she's liberated, being able to be more happy than others etc. This means that she is something more than other who do not have this ability. Namely that's the problem. There is a seperation that she puts between her and others in regards to that. She - liberated , Others - not liberated, She- being able to experience this freedom, Other- not being able to. I'm not saying she felt superior, just that the way she thinks implies that. And no wonder that's she confused or may be feeling guilty or may be feeling bad why others are not like her. I believe she's a good person.
I was the only one there who no longer believes that thoughts or emotions are real, and the only one who has experienced liberation from the bondage of thoughts and emotions. Realizing this that night did not make me feel special, on the contrary, I felt confused and asked myself: How can this be? Why is this so rare? Why do millions and millions of people don’t get to experience this amazing freedom before they die? Why me out of all these people?
Indeed, you are convinced that you are different from the others in a way that makes you feel lonely or at least it makes you ask the questions - Why me? Why me? . Why you? Why you? Well it's not you, you are like me, you are like them, the confusing thoughts that you no longer believe thoughts or emotions are real do not make you different, more liberated or happy or whatever. Of course you are going to be confsed when you believe such thoughts, because they do draw a boundary, seperation between you - the different one who is liberated and the others. That makes you feel odd, lonely in a way, asking different questions. The freedom is only in your head. Others are free as well. Everybody is free. Do not live in an illusion that you are blessed compared to others only because you promote different thoughts in your head.

Again Eckhart's teaching might have helped you in a way, but you are in no way different than others, in your ability to be happy or more liberated, that's an illusion. You cannot see a normal smiling person in front of you and think that you are more liberated or happy than him and also think that he/she somehow is unhappy deep inside. That's an illusion. The teachings might have helped you but you've also acquired many illusory thoughts and schemes along with the teaching, these thoughts and schemes may cause again negative states as the current one.
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by Natalie » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:19 pm

Just came across these descriptions of Awakening and Enlightenment.

Awakening – Is as simple as recognizing that which is the same in misery and happiness alike.

Enlightenment – Is when that which is ever present is understood to be the all-pervasive basis of every experience.

Runstrails wrote:
I'm especially curious, since my husband is one such person. He takes even the worst circumstances in stride and has such natural clarity.
Mine too!!! I used to get furious at him for always thinking nothing was a big deal. I now know better. :)

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by gen6 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:25 pm

runstrails wrote:No one who has really read Natalie's posts could accuse her of egoic superiority or a spiritualized ego. Like Natalie, as one who has suffered, I often wonder what life is like for people who appear not to suffer. I'm especially curious, since my husband is one such person. He takes even the worst circumstances in stride and has such natural clarity. But everyone suffers, whether they label it as that or not. Have you noticed that suffering and being able to accept it with clarity allows one to have tremendous compassion for others. It's one of the 'benefits' of suffering :D
Isn't your husband a clear example? He's not in spirituality but he has such a natural clarity. He appears not to suffer and why don't you ask him, may be he's not suffering. And here again, what do you exactly mean when you use the word ,,suffering,, , ,,suffers,, . What defines when a person is suffering or not? That's important , because, I don't think I'm suffering, when I break a glass or cut myself and experience brief negative emotion that lasts around 15-20 seconds. By suffering I understand something that lasts, that doesn't let you enjoy everyday life, that blocks almost all of your positive emotions, that stays in you more than let's say two weeks, something that doesn't let you laugh at jokes, make jokes etc. Something that destroys your natural equilibrium and you are sunk into negativity all the time. That's suffering.
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by runstrails » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:46 pm

I think of suffering as any resistance to life's changes. These could be as minor as wanting to hold on to happy moments, or a lack of meaning in life , or something more major like you suggest (i.e., depression , anxiety, illness etc..). In the end, suffering occurs when you cannot accept that everything external in life is going to change. So, suffering naturally leads you to find a constant in life, and of course, there is only one constant amidst all the change and that is awareness (Self, I Am).

Regards my husband, I'm sure he does suffer. But he is far less affected by highs and lows of life compared to most people. I guess he has a natural clarity and can see a situation for what it is. At the very least, all this awakening business has allowed me to understand him better! Just for that its worth it! Now, he's also ridiculously absentminded and so by definiton, he's always in the 'now' :D
It's good to hear that there are more people like him around, Natalie's husband and perhaps, you too gen6 (I'm assuming you're a male). So maybe its a gender thing. We women can be a touch emotional sometimes :wink:

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by gen6 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:00 pm

runstrails wrote:I think of suffering as any resistance to life's changes. These could be as minor as wanting to hold on to happy moments, or a lack of meaning in life , or something more major like you suggest (i.e., depression , anxiety, illness etc..). In the end, suffering occurs when you cannot accept that everything external in life is going to change. So, suffering naturally leads you to find a constant in life, and of course, there is only one constant amidst all the change and that is awareness (Self, I Am).

Regards my husband, I'm sure he does suffer. But he is far less affected by highs and lows of life compared to most people. I guess he has a natural clarity and can see a situation for what it is. At the very least, all this awakening business has allowed me to understand him better! Just for that its worth it! Now, he's also ridiculously absentminded and so by definiton, he's always in the 'now' :D
It's good to hear that there are more people like him around, Natalie's husband and perhaps, you too gen6 (I'm assuming you're a male). So maybe its a gender thing. We women can be a touch emotional sometimes :wink:
Ok , well, using your definition, people learn not to suffer with time, I mean, clever people learn not to suffer with time. But the light suffering is not a big deal anyway. I also cannot agree that everybody suffers. Many people do not suffer.
I also cannot agree that spirituality is the best and most effective way to learn the art of not suffering. I also cannot agree that since you are in spirituality and your head is full of spiritual terminology you are something more than others in regards to happiness, being able to enjoy more, more liberated etc., seeing the situation more clear than others etc. It may have helped you, that's fine if it works with you, but I think it's wrong to look at other smiling people and think..hmmm since they are not in spirituality they must suffer deep down there or..I'm more liberated than them, I'm more able to experience happiness, deal with life etc etc. That's an illusion. Unless you speak with the other people you cannot have any idea. And there are many many many many maaaaany people who haven't touched spirituality and who are not suffering (according to your definition). And no spiritual guru on Earth is more than them in regards to happiness. Not Eckhart, Not Gandhi, etc. That's my main point.
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by runstrails » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:15 pm

You could be totally right, gen6 about the people who just live their lives quite happily with no need for spirituality. In my experience these people have almost no or very little ego (again, just naturally). In my life, I have only met 2 adults that fit that description so far. So, they are pretty rare. But just look at all the under 10 year old children around you. I agree that they are life itself and as happy as any spiritual guru (maybe more so). So yes, we must learn from life not just spirituality. :D

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by gen6 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:37 pm

That's the difference. I think they are not rare. It's like, every spiritualized person gets 10 who are as happy as the spiritualized one and have all his/her suffer coping techniques in another costume and even more because the terminology and the whole spirituality system is limiting and confusing in certain aspects. They have and are using the techniques conscisouly or not consciously.
Of course I don't have the tools for running such a research and making such statistics official, that's only my opinion and observations , having seen and talked to lots of people.
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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by KPO » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:13 am

I understand your feelings Natalie. Don't take notice of negative responses. I feel exactly as you do with regards those to whom I am close and i'ts certainly not a feeling of superiority, (how could it be?) but one of sadness. You are exactly right and don't be persuaded otherwise. There's a saying I've heard : " You're born and you die and you have to fill the bit in between as best you can". Is'nt that how most people seem to live? As Tolle says, chasing around for happiness when it's there inside of themselves all the time.

You ask why you have found this deeper meaning to life and not (seemingly) so many others and I think you as an awakened person, to whatever degree, would recognize it in others were it there. Well we all have our different beliefs; mine is that it came with you. You must form your own opinion on that I suggest rather than be influenced by others (including me of course).

I am the father of a mentally-handicapped son. It is a great worry, as you will understand; and yet I don't envy those I see with their, seemingly, empty lives.

Best wishes for the future. Thank goodness you found Tolle.

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Re: What's up with my dinner guests?

Post by Natalie » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:03 am

I appreciate your message KPO. Yes, I am very happy to have found Tolle. I can’t imagine what would’ve happened to me had I not. I was really at the end of my rope with worry and anxiety. Practicing Tolle’s teachings has allowed me to look at the world through a new pair of glasses. I am eternally grateful for this.

The Work of Byron Katie made me realize that having a child like ours does not mean that our lives will always be full of grief and despair, just like having a normal or gifted child does not guarantee the child’s success, his/her happiness, or ours. I am surrounded by examples of how true this is, but was too blind to see them before, too invested in my “sad story”.

Best wishes to you and your son, always.


Natalie

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