Are You Enlightened?

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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby heidi » Sun May 08, 2011 7:19 pm

The advice from Mooji which woke her up is powerful as the mind does seem to do this dance with us ... it reacts to the experience of awakening by both jading itself to it and by pining for it and trying to re-capture it with what caused it before ... only by recognizing that and letting go of that past Joy can we claim it again.


There also seems to be an assumption that enlightenment is like an on or off switch, and the mind longs for the switch to get switched on and stay there :idea: and voila - you're in the state of nirvana. This concept does not honor the day to day experience of being manifested; it is a mind-made ideal.

From my experience, it is a journey, and though I certainly make no claim to being "enlightened" (firstly, because any meaningful definition is tenuous at best, and secondly, it's not a label I'd feel comfortable identifying with), I can state honestly that clarity and awareness have been clearer and awarer as the journey has progressed, and I can and do often rest in awareness in my day to day dealings. My level of acceptance has reached a pleasant state even in the face of unpleasantness, and as a manifested human being I have been fortunate to retain a childlike sense of wonder throughout my life that keeps me open and enthusiastic and inspired. I've been shedding most of my opinions with no effort whatsoever - they have just left "me." I shoot from my intuitive hip. Off and on throughout the day, I find myself wallowing in joy, and my brain says, Wow, this is really wonderful! What a gift!

We truly are in a new stage of human evolution. The Third Wave, the Age of Communication, is lifting us into the Age of Awakening. 8)
Heidi
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wonderment on the third wave
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby Sighclone » Sun May 08, 2011 7:31 pm

Over three years ago, when I had my primary kensho and stumbled about in my life and on the web and ran across this forum, I spoke offline to the moderators and ran across, to my delight, a word which I though I had invented: "Wonderment." And there it was on heidi's webpage. I have not met heidi but so often share her impressions of awakening, in this case, with the "process," thanks heidi.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby ashley72 » Sun May 08, 2011 10:59 pm

heidi wrote:
There also seems to be an assumption that enlightenment is like an on or off switch, and the mind longs for the switch to get switched on and stay there :idea: and voila - you're in the state of nirvana. This concept does not honor the day to day experience of being manifested; it is a mind-made Off and on throughout the day, I find myself wallowing in joy, and my brain says, Wow, this is really wonderful! What a gift!


I can go for a walk in nature and feel such "oneness"... I have a shift in consciousness during these moments, an opening up of space. However, I also need to get lost in forms, particular at work. At times, I get so caught up in forms, I stop noticing the space as much.

The more I get stuck in form, the less space I sense. I now take a lunch break, where I sit in nature and reconnect again with the open space.

Thanks for sharing the Mooji video.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby runstrails » Sun May 08, 2011 11:30 pm

Ashley wrote:
I can go for a walk in nature and feel such "oneness"... I have a shift in consciousness during these moments, an opening up of space. However, I also need to get lost in forms, particular at work. At times, I get so caught up in forms, I stop noticing the space as much.
The more I get stuck in form, the less space I sense. I now take a lunch break, where I sit in nature and reconnect again with the open space.


I can totally relate to your post. Work places are a huge challenge for many of us. The strongest form of practice in my opinion :) .
Even Eckhart decided to leave academia after his shift--since he knew how challenging it would be to remain present and how easy it would be to slip back into the default egoic mode in a university setting. I believe Gary Weber left the corporate world for the same reason. If you look around the forum, you'll find many threads dedicated to staying present in the workplace and overcoming general workplace challenges. Please feel free to add your insights.

BTW, Ashley, thanks for joining the forum. Your honest reports of your direct and personal experiences are very much appreciated. Also, I'm glad you posted your pic--I thought you were a girl until I saw it! Not that it matters it any way. :D
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby rodriguez_88 » Mon May 09, 2011 7:11 am

vera wrote:I would never trust someone, never contextualize their words based on a story or claim of enlightenment. If their words don’t resonate, if I can’t look to what they are pointing at and see something true for myself, then it’s of no help to me whatsoever.

That’s all I look for when I come to these sorts of forums. It’s very simple and nothing else is needed. The more emptiness, the more absence of stories, the more the only way to approach what is being said is to look for myself. I am grateful to those who keep themselves out of it enough to make this easier for me than it would otherwise be.

That's what is helpful for me, that's what I have found leads to insights and realizations for me. I understand others may have a different experience.


Simple as that.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby snowheight » Mon May 09, 2011 1:36 pm

ashley72 wrote:I can go for a walk in nature and feel such "oneness"... I have a shift in consciousness during these moments, an opening up of space.


Funny my sister just got back from a 10 day silent retreat and expressed this as a core "practice" if you will ... It was on the edge of my mind ... I wanted to give her the label for this but didn't remember until I read you post ... "Satori".

Ash, I always knew you were a dude.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby snowheight » Mon May 09, 2011 1:42 pm

rodriguez_88 wrote:
vera wrote:I would never trust someone, never contextualize their words based on a story or claim of enlightenment. If their words don’t resonate, if I can’t look to what they are pointing at and see something true for myself, then it’s of no help to me whatsoever.

That’s all I look for when I come to these sorts of forums. It’s very simple and nothing else is needed. The more emptiness, the more absence of stories, the more the only way to approach what is being said is to look for myself. I am grateful to those who keep themselves out of it enough to make this easier for me than it would otherwise be.

That's what is helpful for me, that's what I have found leads to insights and realizations for me. I understand others may have a different experience.


Simple as that.


There is no wrong way to approach all of this ... what works works and you both have my love and acknowledgement, for whatever that may be worth and insofar as such may extend in a media such as this. I can certainly understand how a personal perspective might be a distraction. Certainly Tolle's only personalization in his two primary works, other than his introduction, was an assumed dialogue with the reader, with only the occasional anecdote. Of course, ET is a rare perspective for sure!
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby Sighclone » Tue May 10, 2011 7:07 pm

"Are you enlightened?" I still think it is a fair question. In a practice full of charlatans, I think that the nature of the answer to that question is important. Someone who might say,"I don't know, what is your definition?, here is my experience...yada, yada" has credibility with me, but someone who discounts the question is suspect. Surely there are those who can self-proclaim it yet behave poorly (Stephen Bodian in "Wake Up Now" recounts a story by a roshi who was recognized as enlightened in three different lineages who appeared publicly drunk and made sexual advances on his students.) And there are those who never talk about it, and are reluctant to own it, who speak from Presence with every word.

Since, ultimately we are our own guru, pointers can appear from anyone, even an infant.

Bodian concludes his fine book: "In the end, the only conclusion we can make about the awakened life is that it assumes the form and personality of the person who lives it...The awakened life is the ultimate fruition and expression of the process that begins with your initial awakening...when you act from the recognition that everything without exception is the divine expression, consciousness in manifestation, spirit incarnate, you're living the awakened life."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby rodriguez_88 » Tue May 10, 2011 10:04 pm

Andy, if you come to the realization that nothing, absolutely nothing is separate from you, and that everything you see is you, who or what is there which can be referred to as "enlightened"? Wouldn't you consider answering the question absurd? Would you not consider the question itself absurd?
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby Midnight » Wed May 11, 2011 1:29 am

rodriguez_88 wrote:Andy, if you come to the realization that nothing, absolutely nothing is separate from you, and that everything you see is you, who or what is there which can be referred to as "enlightened"? Wouldn't you consider answering the question absurd? Would you not consider the question itself absurd?


This. There is no 'you' or 'me' who can be enlightened or not anyway.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby walken » Wed May 11, 2011 1:53 am

:D
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby walken » Wed May 11, 2011 2:09 am

Enlightenment may be the end of the search, but it's the beginning of something else. Ego making claim to enlightenment is only perpetuating the story of me. So I can see why some would object to making claims to enlightenment. Karl Renz will swear up and down that he is not enlightened.

The whole idea of this thread reeks of ego. Ego thinks other people "should" act a certain way, and it feels other people owe them something (such as being owed an explanation or declaration of enlightenment). Neither of these beliefs are true.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby Rick » Wed May 11, 2011 2:42 am

I have heard it said that an enlightened man does not commit sin...that it is impossible for such to lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc. Anyone have any thoughts about this?
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby ashley72 » Wed May 11, 2011 3:39 am

vera wrote:I would never trust someone, never contextualize their words based on a story or claim of enlightenment. If their words don’t resonate, if I can’t look to what they are pointing at and see something true for myself, then it’s of no help to me whatsoever.



All false philosophies contain an element of truth.
This way, everyone involved in matters of dogma gives a different portrayal
of the mysterious subject.
A philosopher explains his philosophy in one way.
And a critic at once refutes his propositions.
A third censured both of them.
A fourth spends his life talking ill of the others.
Everyone states his place along the way.
In order to create an impression that he has figured it out.
This truth and that truth cannot be all true
And yet all of them are not entirely false.
Since error occurs not without some truth.
Fools buy counterfeit money because of its resemblance to real money.
If there were no genuine money current in the world,
How could moneychangers succeed in passing counterfeit money?
If there were no truth, how could falsehood exist?
Falsehood derives its plausibility from truth.
It is the desire of being right that makes men acquire wrong;
If poison be mixed with chocolate and they eat it at once.
Do not say all these philosophies are false,
The false ones capture our emotions by the distinctive smell of truth.
Do not say that they are all false illusions,
There is no illusion in the universe without some truth. Source ?
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Re: Are You Enlightened?

Postby vera » Wed May 11, 2011 4:18 am

There appears to be a belief that no one can be believed without a story of experience to back up their claims, and an ignoring of the fact that belief is not what is being asked for and this is the whole point.

In fact I would say that the truly suspect are those who ask to be believed. It’s so easy to tell a story, to say ‘I have seen and therefore I know’. It is much more sincere to say ‘do not look at me and what I have experienced, look for yourself because that is all that counts.’

To me this doesn’t mean that stories shouldn’t be told or don’t have a value, just that there is a very clear reason why someone may not want to share that. To me, it couldn’t be less suspect.

In the context of all this stuff, it’s harder and more challenging to deal with someone who won’t tell you their story because you can’t rely on a piece of knowledge. You can’t use an answer to a question about enlightenment or a story of an experience to create a belief about them or what they are saying. The only thing you can do is look to what they are pointing at and see if you see it too.

You might say ‘Why should I bother looking? They could be a charlatan.’

Nobody’s stories or answers remove this possibility. The only real way to determine if what someone is pointing at is true is to make your own inspection. How could it ever be otherwise?
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