First of all, Rick and rach' those are from the heart and beautiful. I respect what Andy and Wanderer are doing by looking back and thereby taking a step beyond heart.
Webwanderer wrote:
We've been around this track a few times. Seems we always end up where we start.
To answer fairly one must know:
What are the qualities of the enlightenment to which you inquire?
Is it a definable state of some original consciousness?
Or is it a relative one? In other words, is it just a place on the consciousness scale that is somewhat clearer than some previous state?
Can one be enlightened and not know the qualities of enlightenment?
If, as some claim, that everyone is enlightened, does that mean that enlightenment has little to do with one's conscious state?
Or does it mean that an identified consciousness is not a valid and useful perspective simply because it is imaginary and temporary?
Are you enlightened? If there is no one there to ponder and reply (as some say), can there be anyone there to ask? .....Yet ask you did.
What does all this mean? .....Same as always
Sighclone wrote: But back to the topic here: Do we need to define terms? Is "enlightenment" the same as "awakening" and the same as "Self-Realization?" And is it abiding or does that matter or is it only real when it is abiding, or does it ever "go away?" or is there only one Zen Temple which can certify it, etc...
These are questions asked from a perspective of deep practical experience, and given what I’ve gained personally from my interaction here which has obviously been shaped by that experience they warrant a contemplative answer from both the heart and the mind and in this case those are going to be all mixed up. I hope that it is clear to all the comedy attached to the inherent hubris of my even trying to answer you guys on this plane.
Should it surprise us that the discussion results in a circle? Contemplate the circle for a moment and what it represents … which is essentially (in the abstract), … everything. Now, taking a step back, I am grateful for the willingness to go around the track a few more times for sure.
Yes, the statement from the heart above was that everyone is enlightened. Discerning that by regaining a connection to a felt sense of oneness with Being (ET), is a falling away of mis-identification, and it is this process which seems to have been labeled “enlightenment” down through the ages. Now the conclusion here is that it is typical for one to go through such a process of enlightenment to discover that one is enlightened and upon the discovery, which is really not a discovery at all but a lifting of a veil and a realization that there is nothing to discover – that after the great journey one has not moved an inch. I won’t call this a paradox or even discuss the limits of language as we are addressing that idea elsewhere, but I will call attention to the inherent difficulty involved with considering these ideas with the mind. In trying to define enlightenment, the idea will slip through our fingers (borrowing from
here, Nansen said: “If you try to direct yourself toward it, you go away from it”).
When I became acquainted with the spiritual histories of a few of the mods here it was truly a breathtaking realization how much humility was involved in setting aside what they probably at one point thought they knew as the truth for what they felt was the truth. And the patience it must take to allow what unfolds here to unfold … I can’t even begin to imagine.
So, be all of this as it may, of course to address the question at least partially from the intellect we will have to limit the definition of an “enlightened individual” to something similar to “someone who has slipped the veil and has experienced their sense of felt oneness with Being” … but I would urge that we bear in mind the foregoing caveat of limitation if we are to go down this road.
A brief but important digression on the difference between judgment and discernment if you will indulge (Ananda tried to explain this to me last year and in the end he primed me for rachMiel’s and Rick’s teaching on it) – can be found
here.
My guess is that you guys have encountered long-time practioner’s of some of the enlightenment traditions with prominent external cues of being enlightened and whom you have discerned are as unconscious as they come. I’d further speculate that you’ve encountered enlightened souls who make no show of or even are self-aware of the applicability of this conceptual label. I would guess that by definition it is not possible for an enlightened individual to be unaware of their state, which is, of course, different from being aware of the applicability of the conceptual label.
This is not to either denigrate the ancient traditions nor to fail to recognize that apparently there are non-paths which seem to short-circuit them. Only a fool would regard the rich tradition and tapestry of Zen and not recognize a difference between a life lived in such practice from one lived outside of it. On the other hand, it would take blindness not to recognize that the simplicity of dropping misidentification is always only one instant away from anyone.
So this experience of that felt sense of oneness ... there are apparent examples of permanence in some, but those perspectives are eventually foreclosed by death, so in the end, enlightenment in the context of this definition and further constrained by the context of a single earthly existence is temporary. Of course, removing the second constraint leads to a whole different discussion with some interesting twists and I would give the punchline that it arguably brings one to the answer to the question of “why am I here?” – in the interest of full disclosure I disclaim any belief or studied acquaintance with the notion of re-incarnation and that punchline simply extended these ideas intellectually without attaching to any such belief or disbelief. Interestingly enough, I see a connection between this “why” question/answer and what I’ve speculated is the
fundamental duality.
From my own experience, and reading of other’s here on this forum, it would seem that this felt sense of oneness has two speeds: one which slides on a relative scale and can vary from day-to-day and minute-to-minute and another which is full-on immediate Alice-in-wonderland-freak-out-city … personally I’ve only experienced (or at least THINK that I have experienced) the latter for a few brief periods, but the former suggests that yes, there is at least a flavor of enlightenment which is relative.
Finally, just to bring things back to a convenient circle, I will answer this:
Webwanderer wrote:
Are you enlightened? If there is no one there to ponder and reply (as some say), can there be anyone there to ask? .....Yet ask you did.
with the
rose.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.