unconsciousness

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austin417
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unconsciousness

Post by austin417 » Mon May 07, 2012 4:50 pm

ok so ive experienced ego death and i know it is a def reality. theres just one problem that i cant seem to work my mind around. if consciousness is the ground of being, or as john hagelin puts it, the unified field in physics. how can unconsciousness exist? how can i get so drunk that i black out? or deep sleep or anaesthesia? this makes consciousness seem as if it really is produced by the brain. the only solution i could think of would be that we dont really ever go unconscious, when we sleep, the witness remains but ego and the mind turns off and so no memory is left of the experience. idk, any thoughts?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Sighclone » Mon May 07, 2012 10:19 pm

austin417 -

Welcome to the forum. Because we have many readers for whom English is not their native tongue, we have certain rules about posting, see here. Your question is fine, a417, but please adhere to the punctuation requirements, no acronyms etc.

I heard Hagelin's talk in the first plenary session of the Third Annual Science and Nonduality Conference in San Rafael last October, and have been a TM meditator for 40 years. I also spoke to him privately several times. The TM view of consciousness is that there are seven "states", the final one being Unity Consciousness. Among those are Dreamless sleep and Dreaming. The best book on this is Anthony Campbell's "Seven States of Consciousness," Harper and Row, 1974. But you might take up your question with the TM people in Iowa.

Sleep and unconsciousness happen. To everyone. So it is real. But it is not the opposite of consciousness, just a form of it.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

austin417
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by austin417 » Mon May 07, 2012 10:29 pm

cool ill remember next time. and thanks ill have to check that out.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by GiveUpTheGhost » Tue May 08, 2012 5:11 pm

I was also considering this recently, it's quite a mysterious thing. Eckhart says that dreamless sleep is a return to the "unmanifested", which confused me as I thought the unmanifested was synonymous with consciousness/awareness, and sleep appears to be a lack of consciousness (although I guess we don't really know that). Is it possible that consciousness is only an 'aspect' of the unmanifested in the same way that empty space is? Does sleep take us even deeper into its essence?
Gather up the lost and their souls...

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 08, 2012 5:55 pm

A number of nondual teachers suggest that deep sleep is pure awareness. (Jac O'Keeffe and either Jean Klein or Rupert Spira - I can't remember). Well, for most of us deep sleep is just that...unawareness of anything!! But an interesting point is that upon awaking, there we are again, so whatever deep sleep is (besides being very restful and healthy) it certainly isn't bad, and there is a continuum of awareness which includes it.

I think it is less important to have a conceptual understanding of deep sleep and its place in the world of spiritual awakening, than to recognize, then realize pure awareness in the waking state.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

austin417
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by austin417 » Tue May 08, 2012 7:37 pm

One guy i was reading brought up the point "if you're sleeping and sound wakes you up, who was listening to the sound?".

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Tue May 08, 2012 10:21 pm

You say "I was unconscious during deep sleep". If that is the case, how do you know of it, unless you were there to witness unconsciousness?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

austin417
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by austin417 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:41 am

Well I dont know it, I was just wondering. This question really was kind of pertaining to life after death or consciousness outside the brain. If consciousness is the ground of being which all phenomena arise out of it should be a constant right? Even if you think consciosness "leaves you", if you are consciousness you should be it leaving. I dont know, Ive experienced states that would lead me to believe we are eternal and consciousness is the groundstate for all existence. The only thing that makes me doubt is neuroscience, it really makes it seem like we are just machines. Theres a show you can watch on youtube called phantoms in the brain. It shows people with rare strange brain diseases, its very strange what can happen to a person and their behavior if their brain is tampered with. The only thing i could think of is that the brain is responsible for the ego, thought, emotion, and perception of this reality, but consciousness is not a product of it.

austin417
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by austin417 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:48 am

Well I dont know it, I was just wondering. This question really was kind of pertaining to life after death or consciousness outside the brain. If consciousness is the ground of being which all phenomena arise out of it should be a constant right? Even if you think consciosness "leaves you", if you are consciousness you should be it leaving. I dont know, Ive experienced states that would lead me to believe we are eternal and consciousness is the groundstate for all existence. The only thing that makes me doubt is neuroscience, it really makes it seem like we are just machines. Theres a show you can watch on youtube called phantoms in the brain. It shows people with rare strange brain diseases, its very strange what can happen to a person and their behavior if their brain is tampered with. The only thing i could think of is that the brain is responsible for the ego, thought, emotion, and perception of this reality, but consciousness is not a product of it.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Webwanderer » Wed May 09, 2012 1:03 am

austin417 wrote:how can unconsciousness exist? any thoughts?
For the most part "unconscious" is relative. For example: if we say we acted unconsciously, that's not exactly true as stated. It's only true as it relates to a clearer state of awareness. Ego identification is an unconscious state relative to a more awakened perspective. It is not however truly unconscious, as awareness is simply functioning through the lens of whatever structured thought currently dominates one's focus.

A deep sleep state may well be extremely conscious, it's just that memory of such experience may not be able to sufficiently impress upon brain structures to enable recall. It therefore shows up as a blank memory and is interpreted as unconsciousness.

WW

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Wed May 09, 2012 12:20 pm

Kutso wrote:You say "I was unconscious during deep sleep". If that is the case, how do you know of it, unless you were there to witness unconsciousness?
Obviously the mind can deduce a lot of facts/events that I wasn't there to witness?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Wed May 09, 2012 12:36 pm

I have worked with Tolles ideas/words for a few years now. It has given me a lot, especially the beginning of dropping a lot of identifications I have had, and also an ever increasing habit of going into the now.

But I am pondering the question of awareness, and non duality a lot.

Why does this awareness thing i clearly have going on, why does it have to be eternal or the same to all beings? Why can it not be shut off in the blink of an eye, and turned on as soon it is needed? May awareness exist ONLY when there is something to be aware of?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Donna » Wed May 09, 2012 3:41 pm

johahr wrote: Why does this awareness thing i clearly have going on, why does it have to be eternal or the same to all beings? Why can it not be shut off in the blink of an eye, and turned on as soon it is needed? May awareness exist ONLY when there is something to be aware of?
This reminds me of the quantum double slit experiment....this animation may seem "juvenile" but it really explains it well (I enjoyed it!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWiTVd_M_Lo
~*~*~*~* I love to live and live to love. *~*~*~*~

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Wed May 09, 2012 6:13 pm

austin417 wrote:If consciousness is the ground of being which all phenomena arise out of it should be a constant right?
It is constant, through all the states of waking, dream and dreamless sleep. Unconsciousness is just a word that says "I was conscious of nothing".
austin417 wrote:Even if you think consciosness "leaves you", if you are consciousness you should be it leaving. I dont know, Ive experienced states that would lead me to believe we are eternal and consciousness is the groundstate for all existence. The only thing that makes me doubt is neuroscience, it really makes it seem like we are just machines.
You are confusing yourself with the body. You are not the body.
johahr wrote:Obviously the mind can deduce a lot of facts/events that I wasn't there to witness?
It can speculate about a lot of things, yes. But still you know that you were aware of nothing in deep sleep. This is not speculation.
johahr wrote:May awareness exist ONLY when there is something to be aware of?
If this is the case, how come you know that you were aware of nothing in deep sleep?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Thu May 10, 2012 5:00 am

Kutso wrote: It can speculate about a lot of things, yes. But still you know that you were aware of nothing in deep sleep. This is not speculation.
Wait a second, I may deduce (wrongly) from having no memories that I was aware of nothing. How could I possibly know this? There is no memory or info from the deep sleep, so how could I possibly know wether I was aware of nothing or not aware at all?

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