unconsciousness

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Kutso
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Thu May 10, 2012 4:25 pm

johahr wrote:Wait a second, I may deduce (wrongly) from having no memories that I was aware of nothing. How could I possibly know this? There is no memory or info from the deep sleep, so how could I possibly know wether I was aware of nothing or not aware at all?
Are you saying that sleep was like first you layed down and then without any gap you awoke? Also, isn't your memory full of gaps during a day? Yet, you know that you were aware in those gaps, right?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

johahr
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Fri May 11, 2012 10:02 am

Kutso wrote:
johahr wrote:Wait a second, I may deduce (wrongly) from having no memories that I was aware of nothing. How could I possibly know this? There is no memory or info from the deep sleep, so how could I possibly know wether I was aware of nothing or not aware at all?
Are you saying that sleep was like first you layed down and then without any gap you awoke? Also, isn't your memory full of gaps during a day? Yet, you know that you were aware in those gaps, right?
Yes, have you never missed part of a movie, or woken up to a complete different show on the tv with noticing that you fell a sleep, and not knowing for how long your where sleeping?

The mind then computes for how long you where sleeping, and gives you an idea of whats happened.

This in no way means that the only way you can understand/know that you slept past the movie is because you where aware of nothing. The mind is fully capable of using experience and present conditions to understand what has happened and of course give you a sense of "knowing" what happened.

In the same way, while not remembering exactly how my drive home was yesterday, my mind simply computes from experience that since I did arrive home safely I indeed was aware the hole time, and hense I "know" I was aware during daytime gaps of memory.

All "knowledge" you have of the the past is a combination of memories/experiences, and has nothing to do really with if you where aware/conscious at the time you're reflecting back on.

Am I making sense?

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Kutso
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Fri May 11, 2012 9:35 pm

johahr wrote:Yes, have you never missed part of a movie, or woken up to a complete different show on the tv with noticing that you fell a sleep, and not knowing for how long your where sleeping?
Yes, but experience was not a no gap one. There was a gap between those two moments in which nothing was experienced, and upon waking up one knows that one slept peacefully and joyfully. Everyone loves deep sleep. And why is that? It's because it is coming home to that peaceful Self that one is.
johahr wrote:The mind then computes for how long you where sleeping, and gives you an idea of whats happened.
It sure does. But the mind is not the knower. It is thoughts.
johahr wrote:This in no way means that the only way you can understand/know that you slept past the movie is because you where aware of nothing. The mind is fully capable of using experience and present conditions to understand what has happened and of course give you a sense of "knowing" what happened.
And this sense of "knowing" that the mind presents, is it known? And if so, is it known by the mind? And if it is known by the mind, what knows the mind?
johahr wrote:In the same way, while not remembering exactly how my drive home was yesterday, my mind simply computes from experience that since I did arrive home safely I indeed was aware the hole time, and hense I "know" I was aware during daytime gaps of memory.
If the mind computes that you were aware all the time, does it compute that you are aware right now as well, or do you just know that you are aware? If there was no thoughts right now saying "I am aware", would you know that you were aware?
johahr wrote:All "knowledge" you have of the the past is a combination of memories/experiences, and has nothing to do really with if you where aware/conscious at the time you're reflecting back on.
All knowledge you have of the past is not of the past, but thoughts experienced now.

You say "I have been unconscious".
How do you know that, I ask?
"I know it because the mind deduced this, since it was a gap".
How do you know there was a gap, I then ask?
"I know that, because there was an absence of experience. Even thoughts were not experienced".
My final question is then, if there were no experience, not even of thoughts, how do you know of the absence of it?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Sat May 12, 2012 6:39 pm

Lets put it like this.

Last night I slept deep. I have no memories from it, I have no earlier ecperiences telling me I was aware during such sleep, actually I have no substancial info or even hints suggesting i was aware during that sleep.

Why do you think I actually was?

I am not saying that was or was not aware, just that there is no way to tell the difference. According to you, how would it be possible to detect unaware sleep?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by rideforever » Sat May 12, 2012 9:31 pm

johahr wrote:
Kutso wrote:You say "I was unconscious during deep sleep". If that is the case, how do you know of it, unless you were there to witness unconsciousness?
Obviously the mind can deduce a lot of facts/events that I wasn't there to witness?
I am not sure 'deduce' is the right word. The mind fills in gaps, also known as 'creates your reality', or it interprets one set of phenomena and creates another set of phenomena (explanations).

This happens not only during sleep but all the time. This insight can pull you straight out of it. Everything in front of you is 'unreal' or falsifiable ... and the only thing that remains is the 'eye' that is attempting to understand. The 'eye' or the energy source can turn itself back on itself.
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by rideforever » Sat May 12, 2012 9:35 pm

austin417 wrote:ok so ive experienced ego death and i know it is a def reality. theres just one problem that i cant seem to work my mind around. if consciousness is the ground of being, or as john hagelin puts it, the unified field in physics. how can unconsciousness exist? how can i get so drunk that i black out? or deep sleep or anaesthesia? this makes consciousness seem as if it really is produced by the brain. the only solution i could think of would be that we dont really ever go unconscious, when we sleep, the witness remains but ego and the mind turns off and so no memory is left of the experience. idk, any thoughts?
Because you are identified with something that blacks out, so you black out.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

johahr
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Sun May 13, 2012 10:35 am

rideforever wrote:
johahr wrote:
Kutso wrote:You say "I was unconscious during deep sleep". If that is the case, how do you know of it, unless you were there to witness unconsciousness?
Obviously the mind can deduce a lot of facts/events that I wasn't there to witness?
I am not sure 'deduce' is the right word. The mind fills in gaps, also known as 'creates your reality', or it interprets one set of phenomena and creates another set of phenomena (explanations).

This happens not only during sleep but all the time. This insight can pull you straight out of it. Everything in front of you is 'unreal' or falsifiable ... and the only thing that remains is the 'eye' that is attempting to understand. The 'eye' or the energy source can turn itself back on itself.
Exactly, it fills in the gaps. And yes it fills it in, in a way that "makes sense" to it.

And this is done with vision, hearing, and feelings. The mind tries very hard to translate all input to mental images/ideas/thoughts that makes sense.

And the question still remains, does the inner eye turn off? What could indicate that it does, and what could indicate that it doesn't?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Sun May 13, 2012 10:42 am

Kutso wrote: Yes, but experience was not a no gap one. There was a gap between those two moments in which nothing was experienced, and upon waking up one knows that one slept peacefully and joyfully. Everyone loves deep sleep. And why is that? It's because it is coming home to that peaceful Self that one is.
That deep sleeps is of benefit to us, is not an argument indicating either awareness or unawareness...?
Kutso wrote: And this sense of "knowing" that the mind presents, is it known? And if so, is it known by the mind? And if it is known by the mind, what knows the mind?
Awarness/consciousness is the knower?
Kutso wrote: If the mind computes that you were aware all the time, does it compute that you are aware right now as well, or do you just know that you are aware? If there was no thoughts right now saying "I am aware", would you know that you were aware?
My point exactly, if there is nothing to be aware of, how can we determine if awareness is there or not?

Kutso wrote: You say "I have been unconscious".
How do you know that, I ask?
"I know it because the mind deduced this, since it was a gap".
How do you know there was a gap, I then ask?
"I know that, because there was an absence of experience. Even thoughts were not experienced".
My final question is then, if there were no experience, not even of thoughts, how do you know of the absence of it?
Same answer as before, my mind fills in the gap with what happened. Thus makes it impossible(?) to decide if awareness was present or not?

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Kutso
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Sat May 19, 2012 8:19 pm

johahr wrote:My point exactly, if there is nothing to be aware of, how can we determine if awareness is there or not?
You are confusing awareness with being something experiential. You are saying "how can WE determine if awareness is there or not" as if WE is something other than awareness. This is not so. WE are nothing but awareness. Whatever wants to determine if it is there or not is the mind, and the mind is thought. One moment a thought is there, the next it is not. Between those two moments, where is the evidence that WE were absent? There is no evidence of WE being absent. There is only evidence of mind being absent.

Take the sense "I am". Are you relying it's existence on the second hand evidence of the mind, or is it the very first hand self-evident fact that you are?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Sun May 20, 2012 9:39 pm

Kutso wrote:
...

One moment a thought is there, the next it is not. Between those two moments, where is the evidence that WE were absent? There is no evidence of WE being absent. There is only evidence of mind being absent.

Take the sense "I am". Are you relying it's existence on the second hand evidence of the mind, or is it the very first hand self-evident fact that you are?
Exactly my point. :) There is no evidence for either WE being present, or WE being gone!! So how could we determine which is the case?

"I am" definitely as long as I can sense it, and I take that for a first hand self-evident fact. But that does in no way indicate if, or if not, I am when I do not sense it...?

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Kutso
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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Tue May 22, 2012 10:35 pm

johahr wrote:Exactly my point. There is no evidence for either WE being present, or WE being gone!! So how could we determine which is the case?
So, basically, what you are saying is that you don't know if you were absent or present in deep sleep. Okay.
And I ask you, why do you conclude that you don't know?
Well, you say, because there's no memory of anything.
Then I must ask you to please answer me this:

How do you know there's no memory of anything in deep sleep?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Tue May 22, 2012 10:49 pm

Kutso wrote:
johahr wrote:Exactly my point. There is no evidence for either WE being present, or WE being gone!! So how could we determine which is the case?
So, basically, what you are saying is that you don't know if you were absent or present in deep sleep. Okay.
And I ask you, why do you conclude that you don't know?
Well, you say, because there's no memory of anything.
Then I must ask you to please answer me this:

How do you know there's no memory of anything in deep sleep?
I can access the memory in my mind, and when I try to access any memories from 3pm this morning, nothing turns up. This leaves me with a few options... Maybe I was aware and memory wasn't recording, or perhaps I was aware and there was nothing to be aware of, or perhaps I wasn't aware at all. I see no way to tell which is the case?

Did I misunderstand your question?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Wed May 23, 2012 9:38 pm

johahr wrote:I can access the memory in my mind, and when I try to access any memories from 3pm this morning, nothing turns up.
You cannot access any memory of this in the mind, because the mind was inactive. And that is why nothing comes up. The mind is content, and there was no content. No memory. This you know, right? So, let's play the "how do you know"-game.

How do you know this?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by johahr » Thu May 24, 2012 1:14 pm

Kutso wrote: You cannot access any memory of this in the mind, because the mind was inactive. And that is why nothing comes up. The mind is content, and there was no content. No memory. This you know, right? So, let's play the "how do you know"-game.

How do you know this?
I know I cannot access any memories. But I do NOT know why. Perhaps mind was inactive, perhaps memory was inactive, perhaps perception was inactive, perhaps there was nothing to perceive, perhaps awareness was completely shut down...

And, lets say mind was inactive, still I could not tell the difference from knowing only mind was off, or if also awareness was off. The result to me would be the same wouldn't it?

Are we using the word aware in the same way? How do you know if you were aware before you were born? Does awareness stop when you die?

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Re: unconsciousness

Post by Kutso » Thu May 24, 2012 5:01 pm

johahr wrote:I know I cannot access any memories. But I do NOT know why.
But the fact is that there is a gap in memory from deep sleep. You know that nothing was known. Was the mind there in deep sleep? Obviously not. Then, the mind isnt the one who remembers, because the mind was not there to witness its own absence.
johahr wrote:And, lets say mind was inactive, still I could not tell the difference from knowing only mind was off, or if also awareness was off. The result to me would be the same wouldn't it?
If awareness went during deep sleep, then it would make no sense for you to say that you have no memory, since you would not recognise that fact if awareness ceased.
johahr wrote:How do you know if you were aware before you were born? Does awareness stop when you die?
Shankara says: "the Self (you, awareness) is permanent, because impermanence can never be established".

When a person says 'I was born', he is either identiying himself as the body or he thinks that awareness arises with the birth of the body. But this is not so. When something begins or ends it does so with reference to a factor independent of the series. A constant. That which connects the beginning with the ending also existed prior to the beginning, and after the ending. Otherwise, nobody can establish the beginning of phenomena, or their cessation.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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