when ego is more power full then awareness

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anthony 123
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when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by anthony 123 » Sun May 20, 2012 12:48 pm

Does any one ever experience from time time that the constant thinking in your head is so power full , that it refuses to let you become the observer. There are times when i can read a chapter from the power of now,and every thing slows down and makes sense and i think to my self thank god for Echart Tolle. However some times the chatter in my head is so overwhelming that i can not become the observer, i suspect that most of the time i am still unconscious with out realizing , my progress seems to be two steps forward then three back.I would love to hear from any one who has a similar problem. Thank you.

Dohjo
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by Dohjo » Sun May 20, 2012 3:59 pm

Ego is observed too. It wouldn't exist without being observed. So just remember that! :)

I can't come with a long answer, unfortunately. It's just important to know that everything is observed. It's even observed that, you think it isn't observed.

the key master
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by the key master » Sun May 20, 2012 5:32 pm

anthony 123 wrote:Does any one ever experience from time time that the constant thinking in your head is so power full , that it refuses to let you become the observer. There are times when i can read a chapter from the power of now,and every thing slows down and makes sense and i think to my self thank god for Echart Tolle. However some times the chatter in my head is so overwhelming that i can not become the observer, i suspect that most of the time i am still unconscious with out realizing , my progress seems to be two steps forward then three back.I would love to hear from any one who has a similar problem. Thank you.
The times when thoughts are so overwhelming that you can't become the observer are actually being observed, otherwise you wouldn't know they were happening. If you notice mind trying to become an observer of itself, you are what observes that, and not the mind being observed.

Golf
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by Golf » Mon May 21, 2012 12:46 am

I seem to be having a similar "problem". Perhaps there are some unpleasant emotions underneath and the ego is creating noise to try and cover up the pain. When you think so much, try to see if you can focus your attention deeper inside onto your emotions themselves. That may be something I need to do as well but I haven't had any breakthroughs yet, at least not when trying intentionally.
"If you're so smart, how come you're working at a gas station?"
-"It's a service station. We offer service, there is no higher purpose."
8)

aspiring
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by aspiring » Wed May 23, 2012 1:31 pm

I feel the same way... I think remaining aware is a lifelong challenge, though I imagine one can become more and more conscious every day/week/month/year....

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Zazen
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by Zazen » Fri May 25, 2012 6:11 pm

I believe what the original poster experiences could be described as :
Some minutes of total identification with thought, then it becomes too tense and you awake to observing your thoughts... but quickly fall back again.

So I wouldn't quite put it like "it is good that you are noticing...". it is neither good nor bad, these are just short glimpses of noticing. It is common they happen in the middle of intense pain/identification, particularly if you have been practicing the witness for a while.
Yes these things also happen to me, for example when I wake up from a sleep with a lot of mind activity : it is just impossible to keep awareness of myself intact.

If you cannot practice, then allow unconciousness. When you have that glimpse, if you can, try not complaining about why you have not been concious, but bring full focus on the glimpse itself. If you cannot, that s ok also, but afterwards try not complaing about complaining.

You say you feel progress is not one direction pointed. Indeed it is not, and it cannot be if you look at it : Today I have a good day and I am 80% awake. Tomorrow some past trauma starts my pain body and I am 80% caught in identification with reactions.
If you've been more aware one day and set standards for the next you're not doing a good thing either. So focus on this moment, if you can, when you can. Nothing more you can do, just realise complaining about a day when you couldn't keep self conciousness is pointless(and also part of the ego).

Jbrooke
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by Jbrooke » Sat May 26, 2012 4:19 am

If you cannot practice, then allow unconciousness. When you have that glimpse, if you can, try not complaining about why you have not been concious, but bring full focus on the glimpse itself. If you cannot, that s ok also, but afterwards try not complaing about complaining.
Good insight! I know that I only fuel the fire when the fear, anxiety and frustration consume me due to the fact that I cannot practice at times. It simply isn't feasible certain times. Sometimes all day long. Those are times when I am simply not able to practice and need to let go and just allow unconsciousness. I believe my greatest fear in this is that I believe I will just be feeding the ego, adding more layers to the ego (by not engaging in observing the racing/obsessive thoughts and so on) and therefore I'll be abolishing all that I have done to unskin and weaken the ego. Does this resonate with anyone?

the key master
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by the key master » Sat May 26, 2012 8:15 am

Jbrooke wrote:
If you cannot practice, then allow unconciousness. When you have that glimpse, if you can, try not complaining about why you have not been concious, but bring full focus on the glimpse itself. If you cannot, that s ok also, but afterwards try not complaing about complaining.
Good insight! I know that I only fuel the fire when the fear, anxiety and frustration consume me due to the fact that I cannot practice at times. It simply isn't feasible certain times. Sometimes all day long. Those are times when I am simply not able to practice and need to let go and just allow unconsciousness. I believe my greatest fear in this is that I believe I will just be feeding the ego, adding more layers to the ego (by not engaging in observing the racing/obsessive thoughts and so on) and therefore I'll be abolishing all that I have done to unskin and weaken the ego. Does this resonate with anyone?
Obviously the racing and obsessive thoughts are being observed, otherwise you wouldn't know they were happening. The idea that mind can "practice" being the observer of mind is a misnomer. Mind can't practice being something which isn't mind. A thought isn't going to transcend itself. What is observing thought already transcends thought, and indeed, you already are That.

You mention you are unable to observe the mind when fear, anxiety and frustration arise at times. What is actually being observed is mind trying to become the observer of itself, trying to position itself as outside of itself so it can be something other than itself. This is how mind tries to escape itself, escape the fear, escape the anxiety, and then experiences frustration when its unable to do so, which is something being observed. Even successful escape attempts are fleeting at best. Mind is never anything other than an object of observation. Its never going to become the observer, so splitting itself off in an attempt at such a feat is going to lead to frustration each and every time.

So, it can be seen and understood where the frustration is coming from. The fear and anxiety are being resisted, rather than consciously engaged. So, rather than "trying to observe the fear and anxiety", why not surrender the resistance to them? Why not open your arms to them, invite them in and have them sit at the dinner table? The answer to this is because you don't want to, because fear and anxiety are believed to be problematic, and as these are none other than creations of the mind identification, mind itself is believing itself is a problem. If this can be seen, perhaps some space can open up for these experiences, to allow the mind/person to feel however it wants whenever it wants, without the "need to control or protect". What is freedom if not the absence of the need to control one's spontaneous thoughts and feelings, which are not being chosen by anyone. THere's actually nobody here, while the enlightenment search is all about pretending that there is.

Golf
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Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by Golf » Sat May 26, 2012 10:54 am

the key master wrote:What is actually being observed is mind trying to become the observer of itself, trying to position itself as outside of itself so it can be something other than itself. This is how mind tries to escape itself, escape the fear, escape the anxiety, and then experiences frustration when its unable to do so, which is something being observed. Even successful escape attempts are fleeting at best. Mind is never anything other than an object of observation. Its never going to become the observer, so splitting itself off in an attempt at such a feat is going to lead to frustration each and every time.

So, it can be seen and understood where the frustration is coming from. The fear and anxiety are being resisted, rather than consciously engaged. So, rather than "trying to observe the fear and anxiety", why not surrender the resistance to them? Why not open your arms to them, invite them in and have them sit at the dinner table? The answer to this is because you don't want to, because fear and anxiety are believed to be problematic, and as these are none other than creations of the mind identification, mind itself is believing itself is a problem. If this can be seen, perhaps some space can open up for these experiences, to allow the mind/person to feel however it wants whenever it wants, without the "need to control or protect".
Yes, the mind tries to observe itself, or in other words, you're trying to look at the mind, but still from the mind. And the mind observes the thoughts from the belief, "fear and anxiety are dreadful".
So the first step might be to just try to notice that.

Also, one shouldn't think now, "oh my god then I'm never aware and all is futile"... Awareness is always present, but like sunlight on an overcast day, defocused and dilluted. But it's ALWAYS there in a degree, otherwise you wouldn't know you suffer, or that your thoughts are overwhelming. Everyone who's human has at least a degree of awareness all the time I guess. And the variously murky clouds are mind stuff. White ones floating in clear blue sky might even be constructive thoughts :D

The second step could be to see whether these overwhelming thoughts might be produced in response to an intense emotion that's deeper inside, some fear or sadness, a pattern from childhood that's being re-inforced by new thoughts that resonate with it. I think such "patterns" are intertwined thought and emotion, bundled all together. The whole "pattern" seems like "one stuff" (anxiety, depression), but actually it's two... thought, and emotion, together. But all your life you've been seeing and experiencing them as "one" stuff.

I noticed that a few days ago. I opened my eyes in the morning, then in like half a second a depressing emotion descended on me (heh, like most mornings :oops: ), and like, quarter of a second later, a bundle of thoughts... "oh, I'm depressed, look how that's dreadful, it lasts all the time..."
And at that moment I saw that the "depression" ("one stuff") was actually two "stuffs"... And momentarily thought subsided itself, and the emotion also vanished in like a second or two.
So you see there was first the emotion, and then there was the mental "story", of what it was.

Also, at the moment I saw it, a peculiar "metal image" flashed in my mind, of some red "flesh", enmeshed with a bunch of blue-ish blood vessels actually, like, emotion enmeshed in thoughts. Pretty memorable "visual" image of what happened! And since then I've been free from like 70% of my former depressive feelings every morning :D
But don't think I'm some special guy now, I woke up at least a 1000 times before and I never saw it like that :x :oops:
:)
"If you're so smart, how come you're working at a gas station?"
-"It's a service station. We offer service, there is no higher purpose."
8)

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: when ego is more power full then awareness

Post by the key master » Sun May 27, 2012 9:30 am

Golf wrote:
the key master wrote:What is actually being observed is mind trying to become the observer of itself, trying to position itself as outside of itself so it can be something other than itself. This is how mind tries to escape itself, escape the fear, escape the anxiety, and then experiences frustration when its unable to do so, which is something being observed. Even successful escape attempts are fleeting at best. Mind is never anything other than an object of observation. Its never going to become the observer, so splitting itself off in an attempt at such a feat is going to lead to frustration each and every time.

So, it can be seen and understood where the frustration is coming from. The fear and anxiety are being resisted, rather than consciously engaged. So, rather than "trying to observe the fear and anxiety", why not surrender the resistance to them? Why not open your arms to them, invite them in and have them sit at the dinner table? The answer to this is because you don't want to, because fear and anxiety are believed to be problematic, and as these are none other than creations of the mind identification, mind itself is believing itself is a problem. If this can be seen, perhaps some space can open up for these experiences, to allow the mind/person to feel however it wants whenever it wants, without the "need to control or protect".
Yes, the mind tries to observe itself, or in other words, you're trying to look at the mind, but still from the mind. And the mind observes the thoughts from the belief, "fear and anxiety are dreadful".
So the first step might be to just try to notice that.
While I don't talk about "observing" as a practice for mind, my intention is also not to rob mind of its ability to inquire into what is being observed (itself). In this way, we could say what notices mind isn't mind, but it is that mind is noticed which allows a deeper inquiry into the boundaries of separation to take place.
Also, one shouldn't think now, "oh my god then I'm never aware and all is futile"... Awareness is always present, but like sunlight on an overcast day, defocused and dilluted. But it's ALWAYS there in a degree, otherwise you wouldn't know you suffer, or that your thoughts are overwhelming. Everyone who's human has at least a degree of awareness all the time I guess. And the variously murky clouds are mind stuff. White ones floating in clear blue sky might even be constructive thoughts :D
I would say all form, including mind, appears to something which does not appear, and we call that something awareness. Along these lines, the illusion would be that separate appearances have separate awarenesses. Awareness is more fundamental than any individuated expression. Once a separate person has a separate awareness, God's head is already up his own behind.
The second step could be to see whether these overwhelming thoughts might be produced in response to an intense emotion that's deeper inside, some fear or sadness, a pattern from childhood that's being re-inforced by new thoughts that resonate with it. I think such "patterns" are intertwined thought and emotion, bundled all together. The whole "pattern" seems like "one stuff" (anxiety, depression), but actually it's two... thought, and emotion, together. But all your life you've been seeing and experiencing them as "one" stuff.

I noticed that a few days ago. I opened my eyes in the morning, then in like half a second a depressing emotion descended on me (heh, like most mornings :oops: ), and like, quarter of a second later, a bundle of thoughts... "oh, I'm depressed, look how that's dreadful, it lasts all the time..."
And at that moment I saw that the "depression" ("one stuff") was actually two "stuffs"... And momentarily thought subsided itself, and the emotion also vanished in like a second or two.
So you see there was first the emotion, and then there was the mental "story", of what it was.

Also, at the moment I saw it, a peculiar "metal image" flashed in my mind, of some red "flesh", enmeshed with a bunch of blue-ish blood vessels actually, like, emotion enmeshed in thoughts. Pretty memorable "visual" image of what happened! And since then I've been free from like 70% of my former depressive feelings every morning :D
But don't think I'm some special guy now, I woke up at least a 1000 times before and I never saw it like that :x :oops:
:)
Sounds like you've done some good work over there Golf. How are the greens this time of year? I gotta get to work on my putting game. Otherwise, sounds like the depressive thoughts are just projections from the emotional body. The sad story of the depressed person now is actually an indication of an unresolved conflict or unconsciously harbored energy from a time which is not now (or from experience, which is nothing more than thought and emotion, literally). Its one way the mind carries around the person which doesn't exist, which can feel like a burden at times.

(on a side note my internet usage is just about up for the month and i dont have intention of renewing. if i disappear from the discussion and it continues, ill be back in a month or so when i have free wi-fi at Mickey D's!)

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