Envy

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Someone
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Envy

Post by Someone » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:08 pm

Hi,

I have some friends that have made some really good music and it really made me notice something. Basically they have immortalized themselves. It has devastated me, I know I should be happy for them, but I realize that by them going up to that level I am left 'down here' but it feels more like a drop. I notice it everywhere, successful people seem like they are truly allowed to be fully alive. They dress how they want, have the twinkle in their eye, people hold their every word. However something seems very very negative about it.

I feel completely worthless. I have never been ambitious, I don't like the whole idea. These friends of mine, I know they look down on me. I know they see 'normal people' as just a waste of space wasting their lives. I have stuck by and felt fairly comfortable with my spiritual ideas but now it is very difficult. I'm feeling a very strong urge to go out and be super successful or to even end my life.

I am in quite dark place.

It just seems like their is a small percentage of people at the top who actually have a good life, and then the rest are left to waste. I kinda thought that everyone goes through suffering, but what about someone that has immortalized themselves, created something that will outlive them, made themselves above the rest and safe from criticism. I can handle people having a bigger house or whatever, a bigger car. This is much more heavy.

It's very heavy, its very real. I start to understand when I see an alcoholic on the street yelling at people, most people have a terrible existence.

Is this the idea of life? To create something to immortalize yourself?

Lot of things running through my head. Hopefully others may have some opinions. I don't know what Eckhart has said about this topic.

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rideforever
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Re: Envy

Post by rideforever » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:32 pm

You want a way out ? Ok, I will tell you how.

Within you you have this discontent, this envy, this anger. GO INTO IT.

That is where the Treasure is.

Everything else is wasted time.

And no, they have not made themselves immortal because they wrote some music.

Immortality may be possible but it takes something quite different.

So ... what do you think your negativity wants ? What do you think it is doing ?

It is trying to help you. Inside all that negativity is your tunnel out of here.

Do not ignore it ... go into it, be with it, breathe it ... let it roll into you ... and accept it - meaning cry scream lie on the floor and feel you are dying ... dive into it.

This is the way out.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

Someone
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Re: Envy

Post by Someone » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Thankyou for the response.

I like what you have said. However I'm not sure how to do what you said.

I feel like in the past, I have thought I have surrendered but really I'm just pretending or lying to myself. And more keeps coming, reminding me that It is still there and it's getting harder. It might be that I get used to it and normalize, then another hit comes later and reminds me that my ego is still very strong.

Its ok if you don't reply, I will try to look deeper into what you have said. Otherwise is there specific practices?

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rideforever
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Re: Envy

Post by rideforever » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:03 pm

Yes indeed. I like what you said.

Pretending, lying, hiding ... or just a certain dullness ... they are all ways to escape.

But don't escape !! Your negativity is just trying save you.

Take great interest in it ... watch how you move away - into thought, into activity - but ... wait ... go into it. Let it rain down upon you.

Breathe it in. Do it now.

What do you feel ? Anger ... breathe it in ... watch it as it goes inside ... feel it ... feel it so deeply. Let it in .. and feel it ... be present to it.

Ask yourself ? Am I really letting this in ? Am I still hiding a bit ? Am I afraid of what might happen ?

"I feel tears welling up" ... cry then !
"I feel like I want to die" ... lie on the floor and see that happening !
"I am frustrated" ... calm ... be calm ... and watch the frustration ... gently ... watch ... be

Where is your heart ? Breathe these feelings into your heart. Into your soul. And let what comes come.

Don't prevent the crying. Don't prevent the rage. Don't prevent the scowling, the screaming, or you prevent the soaring.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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rachMiel
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Re: Envy

Post by rachMiel » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:34 pm

There's no one I've run into who is better at getting to the bottom of psychological suffering -- from a Eastern spiritual perspective -- than Jiddu Krishnamurti. Check this out, it might be helpful for you:

Krishnamurti:

Do you know what envy means? You are nice looking, you are finely dressed, or wear a beautiful turban or sari, and I also want to dress like that; but I cannot, so I am envious. I am envious because I want what you have; I want to be different from what I am.

I am envious because I want to be as beautiful as you are; I want to have the fine clothes, the elegant house, the high position that you have. Being dissatisfied with what I am, I want to be like you; but, if I understood my dissatisfaction and its cause, then I would not want to be like you or long for the things that you have. In other words, if once I begin to understand what I am, then I shall never compare myself with another or be envious of anyone. Envy arises because I want to change myself and become like somebody else. But if I say, "Whatever I am, that I want to understand", then envy is gone; then there is no need of discipline, and out of the understanding of what I am comes integration.

Our education, our environment, our whole culture insists that we must become something. Our philosophies, our religions and sacred books all say the same thing. But now I see that the very process of becoming something implies envy, which means that I am not satisfied with being what I am; and I want to understand what I am, I want to find out why I am always comparing myself with another, trying to become something; and in understanding what I am there is no need for discipline. In the process of that understanding, integration comes into being. The contradiction in me yields to the understanding of myself, and this in turn brings an action which is integral, whole.

Questioner:

Why do we seek fame?

Krishnamurti:

Have you ever thought about it? We want to be famous as a writer, as a poet, as a painter, as a politician, as a singer, or what you will. Why? Because we really don't love what we are doing. If you loved to sing, or to paint, or to write poems - if you really loved it - you would not be concerned with whether you are famous or not. To want to be famous is tawdry, trivial, stupid, it has no meaning; but, because we don't love what we are doing, we want to enrich ourselves with fame. Our present education is rotten because it teaches us to love success and not what we are doing. The result has become more important than the action.

You know, it is good to hide your brilliance under a bushel, to be anonymous, to love what you are doing and not to show off. It is good to be kind without a name. That does not make you famous, it does not cause your photograph to appear in the newspapers. Politicians do not come to your door. You are just a creative human being living anonymously, and in that there is richness and great beauty.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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rideforever
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Re: Envy

Post by rideforever » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:46 pm

I like it
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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rachMiel
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Re: Envy

Post by rachMiel » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:00 pm

He hits it, right ride?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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rideforever
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Re: Envy

Post by rideforever » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:19 pm

He's the man.

How can we join with JK ? How can we understand him, how can we share his understanding ?

Even he said at the end of his life that no-one understood - a warning to us.

We must see his life, born in India, discovered by the Theosophists, mentored and coached by many highly developed people, living in Switzerland ... and then going his own way and trying to communicate - but perhaps not being able to.

There are many messages in this journey :

- the stimulation of unusual people,
- the inherent gifts he was born with and he had allowed to develop within him spontaneously,
- then going his own way
- then finding it difficult to communicate ... or perhaps even understanding what had happened or how to replicate it.

We must look into these things if we are to connect with JK.
A few days before his death, in a final statement, he declared that nobody among either his associates or the general public had understood what had happened to him (as the conduit of the teaching), nor had they understood the teaching itself. He added that the "immense energy" operating in his lifetime would be gone with his death, again implying the impossibility of successors. However, he offered hope by stating that people could approach that energy and gain a measure of understanding "...if they live the teachings"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

Osho on JK's Death
http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/inne ... amurti.txt
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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Onceler
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Re: Envy

Post by Onceler » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:26 pm

Perhaps it was not the listeners who failed to comprehend, perhaps JK failed in articulating his experience and vision in a meaningful, reproducible manner.
Be present, be pleasant.

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treasuretheday
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Re: Envy

Post by treasuretheday » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:33 pm

rachMiel wrote:He hits it, right ride?
I also enjoyed the quotes you posted, RachMiel. They are beautiful and edifying. I would quibble with the master regarding the goodness of hiding brilliance under a bushel basket, but sing praises for everything else he puts forth there.

My other disappointment rests with you, RachMiel. You are a writer, an artist, an all-around creative person. But you hide your brilliance under a bushel basket, choosing to express yourself entirely through another's words. You may think this a humble stance, but in the process you spare us the pleasure of your own inspired writing.

I am grateful for the quotes. Nice of you to share. But would love to see a bit more from you. You're holding out on us.
Life itself is the proper binge.
-Julia Child

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rachMiel
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Re: Envy

Post by rachMiel » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:49 am

treasuretheday wrote:
rachMiel wrote:He hits it, right ride?
I also enjoyed the quotes you posted, RachMiel. They are beautiful and edifying. I would quibble with the master regarding the goodness of hiding brilliance under a bushel basket, but sing praises for everything else he puts forth there.

My other disappointment rests with you, RachMiel. You are a writer, an artist, an all-around creative person. But you hide your brilliance under a bushel basket, choosing to express yourself entirely through another's words. You may think this a humble stance, but in the process you spare us the pleasure of your own inspired writing.

I am grateful for the quotes. Nice of you to share. But would love to see a bit more from you. You're holding out on us.
Well, thanks treasure. That's sweet of you to say.

rideforever posted an impassioned personal response. Rather than do the same, I thought an analytical passage from Krishnamurti might work well.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

jimmyrich
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Re: Envy

Post by jimmyrich » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:52 am

To me, envy is simply about bad/low self worth and terrible self esteem. A self respecting/accepting person would NEVER hold envy or jealousy of anyone or anything. I am not sure what ET says about this but I'd imagine he would recommend some strategy to fix your envy and bad/low self worth or you could google: self esteem to learn how to fix yours.
good luck, :)
Someone wrote:Hi, I have some friends that have made some really good music and it really made me notice something. Basically they have immortalized themselves. It has devastated me, I know I should be happy for them, but I realize that by them going up to that level I am left 'down here' but it feels more like a drop.
That's a perfect description of low self worth!
I notice it everywhere, successful people seem like they are truly allowed to be fully alive. They dress how they want, have the twinkle in their eye, people hold their every word. However something seems very very negative about it.
It can seem "negative" to a low-self-worth person.
I feel completely worthless. I have never been ambitious, I don't like the whole idea. I am in quite dark place.
there's another perfect description of bad self esteem and self contempt.
It's very heavy, its very real. I start to understand when I see an alcoholic on the street yelling at people, most people have a terrible existence.
Only those with bad/low self worth have a terrible existence, IMO.
good luck building up your self worth..... :)

jimmyrich
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Re: Envy

Post by jimmyrich » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:12 pm

rachMiel wrote:There's no one I've run into who is better at getting to the bottom of psychological suffering -- from a Eastern spiritual perspective -- than Jiddu Krishnamurti. Check this out, it might be helpful for you: Krishnamurti:
Do you know what envy means? You are nice looking, you are finely dressed, or wear a beautiful turban or sari, and I also want to dress like that; but I cannot, so I am envious.
IMO & experience, we are taught, early in life by very insecure people, usually our parents, that we are NOT good enough, smart enough, pretty enough, worthy enough and on and on to the point where many of us grow up feeling LESS-THAN and suffer with bad/unhealthy self esteem/worth, so we look around and ENVY how others look and what others have and do, thanks to very damaging early childhood conditioning from our own parents! I imagine Krishnamurti skips around the facts of bad parenting because in his culture it is extremely TABOO to "diss" one's parents. :(
I am envious because I want what you have; I want to be different from what I am.
Yes, different from a mentally damage child!
Being dissatisfied with what I am, I want to be like you; but, if I understood my dissatisfaction and its cause, then I would not want to be like you or long for the things that you have.
It's interesting for me to see how often so-called wise people cannot or will not acknowledge the "cause" of bad/inadequate/harmful/negligent PARENTING in producing bad self-esteem and ENVY in a defenseless child!
In other words, if once I begin to understand what I am, then I shall never compare myself with another or be envious of anyone.
I agree that once I find my Real Self (What I am), there will no longer be any need to rise above the damages of bad parenting on my lower/egoic self but, until I do arrive at this "self realization" there is a lot that I can do to fix my damaged egoic self and rise above ENVY right now!
Envy arises because I want to change myself and become like somebody else.
Envy arose in me because I was made to believe that I am NO DAMNED GOOD!
But if I say, "Whatever I am, that I want to understand", then envy is gone; then there is no need of discipline, and out of the understanding of what I am comes integration.
That makes sense if you want to go that way and work to discover who/what you are besides an insecure little person.
Our education, our environment, our whole culture insists that we must become something. Our philosophies, our religions and sacred books all say the same thing. But now I see that the very process of becoming something implies envy,
And the process of wanting to become something implies INSECURITY, which implies bad/negligent early conditioning/programming, which implies bad/inadequate parenting or care-giving, which implies that they also suffered from bad self esteem and insecurity! It seems that the Sage isn't willing to look at the whole picture.
which means that I am not satisfied with being what I am;
I'd say it's a dissatisfaction with what others forced you to be = insecure and jealous.
and I want to understand what I am, I want to find out why I am always comparing myself with another, trying to become something;
To understand it would only take a little examination of one's childhood and parenting to see the glaringly obvious elements of one's early, unhealthy conditioning and training to feel insecure and believe the LIES they were fed about their intrinsic WORTH by very insecure & mentally damaged adults.
and in understanding what I am there is no need for discipline. In the process of that understanding, integration comes into being.
I have no idea what he means by "discipline" but I know for a fact that my insecurity began right at home the moment my unhealthy parents began convincing me that I was NO DAMNED GOOD and would never amount to anything. Fortunately, ET is helping me understand or remember WHAT I AM - beyond a mentally damage person.
Why do we seek fame?
Krishnamurti:
Have you ever thought about it? We want to be famous as a writer, as a poet, as a painter, as a politician, as a singer, or what you will. Why? Because we really don't love what we are doing.
In my case (I am a musician) fame meant rising above the low life scum bag my parents taught me to feel like. I wanted to feel better than the insecure, self condemning JERK my equally insecure parents created!
If you loved to sing, or to paint, or to write poems - if you really loved it - you would not be concerned with whether you are famous or not.
Or if you really loved YOUR SELF and had not been taught to diss your self, you would not need "fame" or approval - you would be enough just as you are! Many performers are DESPERATE for approval and validation or acceptance to make up for the emotional damages by their parents and/or caregivers.
To want to be famous is tawdry, trivial, stupid, it has no meaning;
It has ENORMOUS meaning to emotionally damaged children!
but, because we don't love what we are doing, we want to enrich ourselves with fame.
B.S.! we want to enrich ourselves to overcome or offset the emotional damages of a bad childhood!
Our present education is rotten
It's amazing that he just cannot bring him self to name the demon = ROTTEN PARENTING! Our "education" is that of bad/inadequate parenting, for the most part!
because it teaches us to love success and not what we are doing. The result has become more important than the action.
Which is all the consequence of inadequate parenting which turns a self loving, happy, secure child into an insecure, unhappy and ENVIOUS toddler, pre-schooler, adolescent and finally an adult who might give their insecurity & ENVY to the next generation! :(
But, what the heck, life is an Adventure and each of us is on their own Adventure so all I can do is enjoy my trip and do the best I can while I'm here. :)

jimmyrich
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Re: Envy

Post by jimmyrich » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:33 pm

rideforever wrote:He's the man.How can we join with JK ? How can we understand him, how can we share his understanding ? Even he said at the end of his life that no-one understood - a warning to us.
:lol: That sounds like bad/faulty self esteem to me! Was he really that vain and insecure?
A few days before his death, in a final statement, he declared that nobody among either his associates or the general public had understood what had happened to him (as the conduit of the teaching), nor had they understood the teaching itself.
I wonder if he was just a little paranoid at the end?
I watched a J.K. video where he was asking some (respectful) Indian kids questions and when they gave him answers that he didn't like, he cut them off by telling them to "just LISTEN" (in other words SHUT UP!) and it was glaringly obvious that J.K. was insulted and "up set" with those very polite and honest kids. It floored me to see the Sage become such a small, insecure and defensive guy! I felt bad for the crumby way he treated those kids - like an arrogant grandpa "correcting" the younger generation! Those kids did not deserve his contempt and disrespect. :(

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Re: Envy

Post by ashley72 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:27 pm

RachMiel wrote:Our education, our environment, our whole culture insists that we must become something. Our philosophies, our religions and sacred books all say the same thing.
Musturbation!!!! I'm an addict... we all are. :lol:

Ironically, its only when we give up on musturbation, that we wake up.

I'm a recovering musturbator!!!! :roll:

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