Meditate or not?

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cloud
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Meditate or not?

Post by cloud » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:22 am

Different teaching point toward regular meditation. But is meditation not also supporting duality? 'Someone' who is sitting there meditating. I think eckhart mentions that he spends certain time of the day in presence. Krishnamurti mentioned that you will be invited to that presence but not when searching for it.

Is meditation setting a person up on a path where they can 'achieve' something?

Would be great to get some different views.

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KathleenBrugger
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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by KathleenBrugger » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:17 pm

This is an interesting question cloud. I posted something like it on another thread, and I'll ask it again here: I'm getting the sense that nondualists do not see the value in spiritual practice. My impression of nondualism so far: when you awaken to your true self there is then nothing else to do. Any effort or practice can only be seen as reinforcing the idea of separate self--that is, it's an attempt to make the separate self better, rather than resting in the reality that there is no separate self at all. Is this a misconception? Is sitting in meditation a way to regularly reconnect with the experience of nonduality?
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Fore
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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by Fore » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:07 am

I wouldn't get to caught up thinking about dual and non-dual, this is a paradox. I suggest looking into meditation with a face to face teacher within a tradition that interests you. Don't be afraid to shop around, but when you find a practice that suits, dig until your questions are answered.

For me meditation is about letting go, not achieving, but it is a bumpy path.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:08 am

Yup, some sort of activity to focus the mind is good. Meditate, yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, mindfulness. I shell and eat peanuts on my patio while watching the squirrels.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by KathleenBrugger » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:11 am

I agree that some kind of centering/mind-clearing activity is good. I have other practices concerning my behavior in the world. But I think cloud wasn't asking what types of meditation work, but is meditation counter-productive because it reinforces duality.
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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by alex » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:45 am

Meditation has been pivotal on my path. It began with self enquiry -'I am, I am, I am' (a different spin on the usual 'What am I?') ... until I recognised the simple pure awareness of my being. Meditation was then just resting in/as this pure being. True meditation is simply your natural state of being. It most definitely helps one to wake up, regularly resting here! From there one can look into the nature of mind.. see clearly that thoughts appear within this awareness.
Its amazing how simple it all is, yet spirituality is generally so messy, people going off on all kinds of tangents.
On the duality/non duality stuff... its just mind stuff and concepts. Get over it. Its like some new kind of religion, the non-dualists. Religion is bullshit. Look for the truth of your own being for your own self and forget the rest.
Last edited by alex on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by cloud » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:49 am

The center of most of the teachings are looking from a non dualistic perspective and i wonder weather meditation does contradict this! From reading up on different techniques it seems that most traditional methods just help create a good concentration. I think maybe the term sitting could be better understood where the person is just inquiring into the experience of what is being presented.
KathleenBrugger wrote:My impression of nondualism so far: when you awaken to your true self there is then nothing else to do
I would disagree and say when you realize there is no divide and you are everything, you can operate from here and provide compassion in each moment, this could involve meditation or not. Didn't buddha wake up when he stopped meditating and sat on the grass with something too eat?

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by cloud » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:51 am

alex wrote:Meditation has been pivotal on my path. It began with self enquiry -'I am, I am, I am' (a different spin on the usual 'What am I?') ... until I recognised the simple pure awareness of my being. Meditation was then just resting in/as this pure being. True meditation is simply your natural state of being. It most definitely helps one to wake up, regularly resting here! From there one can look into the nature of mind.. see clearly that thoughts appear within this awareness.
Its amazing how simple it all is, yet spirituality is generally so messy, people going off on all kinds of tangents.
Excellent description! I think somewhere along the lines it was turned into a practice, where it is easy to think there is something we can achieve outside this moment now!

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by karmarider » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:11 pm

alex wrote:Meditation has been pivotal on my path. It began with self enquiry -'I am, I am, I am' (a different spin on the usual 'What am I?') ... until I recognised the simple pure awareness of my being. Meditation was then just resting in/as this pure being. ...
That's quite good, very clear. It really is this simple--it is only spirituality which abstracts and complicates it.

I find myself falling back to what it feels like to be 'I am' at various times for no particular reason. That's meditation I suppose.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by alex » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:26 pm

I think somewhere along the lines it was turned into a practice, where it is easy to think there is something we can achieve outside this moment now!
Yes that is the whole structure of ego, believing the thought that there is something to achieve, wanting enlightenment, the elusive carrot. When you find the being that is your true nature you can see that this belief just appears within that. This recognition is what crumbles the entire structure of the false you! There's nothing to achieve, there is only un-doing.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:39 pm

This duality/non-duality theme has surfaced a lot lately and I agree with Alex and KR, it's not that important. However, I believe something else is going on. To say there is either duality or non-duality is itself a duality......both are true and both co-exist. We move thru the world of duality (or perhaps the world of duality moves thru us) and practices like mediation, inquiry, etc can move us into non dual experience (in that sense it's an entry, a gate, but maybe not the gateless gate). I see duality existing in an ultimately non-dual experience.....there is a striation as we move thru these states.

Both are true, the question is, where do you want to hang your hat? Not a lot of hat racks in the non-dual world.....and I happen to like hats.

I also feel like I meditate at different points throughout my day......I purposefully go to the 'I am' or 'me', as KR and Alex report, several times a day. Sometimes the I am emerges spontaneously. Other times I will do a quick shift of attention away from negative stimuli to my breath. Still other moments I can become immersed in a detail, sound, experience, so thoroughly that there is little seperation between sensing and the sensed.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by the key master » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:09 pm

cloud wrote:Different teaching point toward regular meditation. But is meditation not also supporting duality? 'Someone' who is sitting there meditating. I think eckhart mentions that he spends certain time of the day in presence. Krishnamurti mentioned that you will be invited to that presence but not when searching for it.

Is meditation setting a person up on a path where they can 'achieve' something?

Would be great to get some different views.
Even Jed Mckenna, who might be slightly more unforgiving than I am, mentions he meditates. Something else he also says is that enlightenment is life negative and that human adulthood is life positive, or to only seek enlightenment if you have no other choice. When UG Krishnamurti says 'go home I have nothing for you', he sounds like a prick, but he's actually doing some folks, meaning some egos, a favor.

Meditation can slow down the freight train nature of egoic thought which is a good thing if that's what you're looking for. If you're thinking and imagining you don't want to be you're already in a split mind state and meditation can exacerbate this dynamic maybe. Ironically many people start seeking with the intention of splitting their minds even farther or into even more deeper conflict than when they first hear about something like truth realization, even if unconsciously so.

Tolle mentions to look for the gaps between thoughts, and to hang out in the gaps. What hanging out in those gaps does, is allow the mind to position itself as outside of itself, and from that position analyze whatever is being witnessed with dispassionate curiosity, which at the same time leads to the unconscious erection of belief structure around that position. I am the witness, I am consciousness, I am errythang type crud. I'd say 99% of spiritual seekers are somewhere trapped in that structure, not quite discontent enough to break their way out but just comfy enough to stay in.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by runstrails » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:43 pm

Kathleen said:m getting the sense that nondualists do not see the value in spiritual practice. My impression of nondualism so far: when you awaken to your true self there is then nothing else to do.
Hi Kathleen,
I would say its quite the opposite. Traditional non-dual paths have more practices than we can usually keep track of! Yoga is the main practice of Vedanta (Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga,Hatha Yoga) and Buddhism has a ton of different types of meditation practices. Most people continue with these practices before and after self-realization.

Also, seems like 'non-dualists' has become a category that people want not to be included in, even though most people on this thread seem to at least acknowledge the ultimate non-dual existence. Not sure I understand what the problem is. Maybe its a semantics thing.

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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by KathleenBrugger » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:38 pm

runstrails wrote:
Kathleen said:m getting the sense that nondualists do not see the value in spiritual practice. My impression of nondualism so far: when you awaken to your true self there is then nothing else to do.
Hi Kathleen,
I would say its quite the opposite. Traditional non-dual paths have more practices than we can usually keep track of! Yoga is the main practice of Vedanta (Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga,Hatha Yoga) and Buddhism has a ton of different types of meditation practices. Most people continue with these practices before and after self-realization.

Also, seems like 'non-dualists' has become a category that people want not to be included in, even though most people on this thread seem to at least acknowledge the ultimate non-dual existence. Not sure I understand what the problem is. Maybe its a semantics thing.
I asked the question because I have found some of what I've read here and in some books confusing. As cloud said in the OP, I've sometimes gotten the sense that people think any kind of practice is "seeking" and that just reinforces a sense of separation. It wasn't meant to be critical of nondualism; I just don't always understand some of the conclusions people are drawing.
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Re: Meditate or not?

Post by rachMiel » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:26 pm

Lama Surya Das, a Dzogchen teacher, advocates the practice of "quickies" -- short, frequent, mini-meditations scattered throughout the day. Moments when you stop the I/thought engine and feel the source. Periodic little visceral reminders of and groundings in "what is."

This is how I roll meditation-wise these days, and I find it very effective. It also removes the burden of feeling like you *should* be spending more time on the mat.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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