Suicide vs Egocide

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epiphany55
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Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:12 am

I've had feelings of intense guilt/remorse/shame for the past three months now. I've received some tremendous help on this forum from people of great wisdom and compassion, which has given me a clearer perspective on life. But there's something in the way of me just letting go of my past and I don't feel that I can just accept the pain and live a meaningful life.

I want to smile genuinely again. I want to enjoy things without feeling undeserved. I want rid of that sinking feeling every time I get a whiff of joy. Most of all I want to scrub my brain until my past, good and bad, is erased and I can start afresh. I don't care if I lose every positive memory I have in the process, just please take it all away from me. I want that carefree innocence back, when my only "sin" was coming home later than I said I would or accidentally letting my girlfriend's cat out at night (she hates that!), or something trivial I would forget after a day.

In my current state of mind, the rest of my life looks frankly intolerable. I turn 30 this month and it feels like my life is already over. I can't be at peace with what I did, even though people (well, the one person I have revealed what I did) have assured me they don't think I am a monster. I've searched deep within and I still cannot fathom what made me do it. I try not to judge it, but I can't help but judge it. It was morally reprehensible.

I can be present for short moments, but the heaviness of the guilt lingers throughout these moments and spoils it. I've tried and tried to just "be present" but I cannot escape the part of my mind that has imprisoned me over my past. I can't just let it go and I don't know why. It's driving me nuts. It's there, in my gut, pulling me down at every moment. The table reminds me of my guilt. Trees remind me of my guilt. Music and TV remind me of my guilt. Every pair of innocent eyes I look into reminds me of my guilt.

So I figure I have a choice - kill my body or kill my mind (or at least the current state of it). Obviously the latter would cause the least amount of suffering for those around me. Being present is not enough. I need to completely rid myself of my current identity so that presence is no longer polluted by such a heavy past.

I'm tired of pretending to "let go" and not actually being able to let go.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

sardinelover
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by sardinelover » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:39 am

epiphany55 wrote:Being present is not enough.
If you are truly present, you'd realise that this statement is false. Past and future can't exist in the present. You are haunted by your past because you are not present.
epiphany55 wrote:I'm tired of pretending to "let go" and not actually being able to let go.
That is because letting go, accepting and surrender is just a thought. Thinking is the cause of suffering, and therefore thinking can't be the solution to suffering. In the light of presence, you are at ease with any situation, and therefore you have already let go, accepted and surrendered(and you may not even be aware of this).
Relax your face

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:56 am

It sounds like you need to forgive yourself, that this would have to be the first step in your transformation to a more enjoyable life.

If you are flooded with self hatred and guilt, presence is probably not the best path to healing, at least not by itself. Hatred/guilt is in the realm of the psychological; psychotherapists are the "teachers" who are best trained to help you get at it and get over it.

How about a double-pronged approach: psychotherapy and mindfulness? Or, better yet: Find a therapist who incorporates mindfulness into his/her practice.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

epiphany55
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:56 am

sardinelover wrote:If you are truly present, you'd realise that this statement is false. Past and future can't exist in the present. You are haunted by your past because you are not present.
I can see the truth in that statement but it's not so much thoughts of the past, rather the heaviness stays with me through presence and cheapens the experience. Unless I am not quite there.
rachMiel wrote:How about a double-pronged approach: psychotherapy and mindfulness? Or, better yet: Find a therapist who incorporates mindfulness into his/her practice.
Yes I have considered a therapist but I was unsure if they would help me do anything as extreme as what I wish to do, which is destroy my current identity. I always thought of therapists as fixers, not destroyers.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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dijmart
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by dijmart » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:28 am

epiphany55 wrote:I can't be at peace with what I did, even though people (well, the one person I have revealed what I did) have assured me they don't think I am a monster. I've searched deep within and I still cannot fathom what made me do it.
Can you make amends to whom ever was the target of what you did? It might make you feel better.
I try not to judge it, but I can't help but judge it. It was morally reprehensible.
Again, making amends may help... even if it's just an apology.
I can be present for short moments, but the heaviness of the guilt lingers throughout these moments and spoils it. I've tried and tried to just "be present" but I cannot escape the part of my mind that has imprisoned me over my past.
My opinion is that you need to either seek counseling or seek your true Self, presence alone will only work while being present .. now, then you'll be right back to ego thinking if it can't be maintained/abided in permanently . What I mean by seeking your true Self is intensive self inquiry. Look it up, if you don't know what I'm referring to. Some like Ramana Maharshi's "who am I" and some like John Sherman "look at you" for starters. Once you find out who you really are and who you are not, then it's easier to let the ego stuff go...even the shameful stuff.
So I figure I have a choice - kill my body or kill my mind (or at least the current state of it).
Well, don't kill the body, if you believe in Karma, then you'll probably not get off that easy.

Once you find your true Self, the notion of needing to kill the mind is almost silly, there is no need, it's just seen for what it is- I even laugh at it sometimes, after something burps up and I think now where the heck did "that" come from..hahaha.

I won't say all, but most have done some shameful stuff. I know I have in my life, at least 2 things I've never told ANYONE about ...ever. So, chew on that... you're not alone. :wink:
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Psychoslice
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by Psychoslice » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:49 am

You can only let go if you know what to let go of, try to feel where all this emotion arises from, such as when you were a child. Go through your life in your mind, as far back as you can remember and keep continuing onwards through the years of your life, You will know when you have reached cause, by the gut feeling that will arise. If you can pinpoint this moment where the emotional pain comes from, you then can deal with it, this is called unfinished business, it keeps on bubbling away deep in side of you, just like a cancer. We all deal with emotional pain in our own way, so you need to find your way and deal with it there, it may be forgiving yourself or someone else, it could be what someone in your life said to you, or how they treated you, keep questioning this pain and bring it to the surface so you are face to face with it, tell this pain that you no longer need it, that you are going to get on with your own life in your own way.........now you have something to drop.

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:10 pm

sardinelover wrote:
rachMiel wrote:How about a double-pronged approach: psychotherapy and mindfulness? Or, better yet: Find a therapist who incorporates mindfulness into his/her practice.
Yes I have considered a therapist but I was unsure if they would help me do anything as extreme as what I wish to do, which is destroy my current identity. I always thought of therapists as fixers, not destroyers.
You need to find the right therapist. Someone who understands why you want to commit egocide and is willing to work with you on it.

In the meantime, here are a few things that might speak unto you:

Osho's hara-centering meditation - Living in/from the hara is a step in the right direction for you, I think.

Healing the Soul through Creativity - Plenty of good talk about egocide here.

The Egocide of Bucky Fuller - Pick up some tips? ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Admiral Akmir
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by Admiral Akmir » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:31 am

It always discourages me when people recommend therapy. It makes me feel like I'll never improve unless I go and see someone, and that's never a good feeling. I went to see a therapist last year for a few months and she said that some patients expect to be healed, but the reality is that their the ones who do all the work, the therapist is just a guide. That's one of the reasons I found the teachings to be so powerful, because it seemed to give me the tools to heal, when before it had been implied by others on a different forum that I would remain stuck if I didn't get therapy, and that's a terrible thing to be told in my opinion.

I'm not really lashing out at any of the responses here that recommended therapy, I guess I'm just wanting to voice my fears about what it means when people throw it out there as a solution.

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Psychoslice
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by Psychoslice » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:44 am

I think therapy has its place just as medication does, I am schizophrenic and I certainly needed therapy at a time in my life when I was suicidal, there is nothing to fear in therapy, it takes guts to do it and to keep to it. Reading self-help books such as Tolle's is also a form of therapy, telling people they don't need therapy is worse than suggesting they may need therapy.

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dijmart
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by dijmart » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:00 am

Admiral Akmir wrote:I guess I'm just wanting to voice my fears about what it means when people throw it out there as a solution.
It is a solution for some, I don't understand what your issue is with it? Sorry, if you didn't benefit from it, but it can be beneficial. I know, I had therapy about 5 years ago and it helped tremendously. This was prior to any knowledge of E.T.'s teachings, but shortly after my counseling was over I read New Earth and I was ready for it. Like anything, there are good therapists and there are crappy ones, you will be the judge if they are helping you, if not, find another one.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Admiral Akmir
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by Admiral Akmir » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:36 am

dijmart wrote:
Admiral Akmir wrote:I guess I'm just wanting to voice my fears about what it means when people throw it out there as a solution.
It is a solution for some, I don't understand what your issue is with it? Sorry, if you didn't benefit from it, but it can be beneficial. I know, I had therapy about 5 years ago and it helped tremendously. This was prior to any knowledge of E.T.'s teachings, but shortly after my counseling was over I read New Earth and I was ready for it. Like anything, there are good therapists and there are crappy ones, you will be the judge if they are helping you, if not, find another one.
Well, I'm not against other people going, it just feels frustrating for me personally. After I read ET it was sort of empowering, like it put the solution back in my hands. I read other spiritual teachers as well and picked up things from them, and I feel like I have a much greater understanding of things now. When I'm having a tough time and people recommend therapy, this is what I hear

"You can't fight the battle alone, you're just going to spin in circles forever, only hard work through therapy can fix this stuff."

I'm not saying that anyone said that, but that's what comes through the old filter and lands at my doorstep. that's a really scary concept to me, the idea that I can't find the solution alone, that I'll be stuck forever unless I seek outside help.

peas
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by peas » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:44 am

What does 'therapy' actually mean?

Eckhart did therapy with people before he wrote his first book. He was the 'therapist'. He was called a 'healer' by those he spoke to, at first, because people felt healed by his involvement in their lives.

That's what 'therapy' actually means - healing power or quality.

Healing can occur when you read a book. You get 'therapy' from reading the book.

Healing occurs when you speak or write to someone who shares presence with you. You are getting 'therapy' right now on these forums.

Therapy, in it's purest form, is what we have all been through and are still going through.

Thanks for the therapy everyone!

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rachMiel
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by rachMiel » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:49 am

In order to benefit from psychotherapy, you need to be willing to work with your self/ego. This can be difficult (and might seem counterproductive) for those who are working at transcending the self.

Thing is, we all have a self/ego. It's part of the human package. If you're having psychological difficulties, it means there is something awry with your sense of self. It's too strong, too limiting, you're too dependent on it, it's wallowing in narcissism. Having an unhealthy relationship with your self is a real obstacle to making spiritual progress. That's where a good therapist can come in, to help you heal your relationship with self. At that point you are imo better equipped to dive into presence/meditation.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

peas
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by peas » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:12 am

My summary notes from a recent Q & A Eckhart did on the topic of therapy:

----

Q/ Do you regard talking therapies, such as psychotherapy or counselling, as a useful tool to help us release unexpressed emotion or could it end up being just an outlet for the painbody to feed on my story of suffering?

A/ The essential factor in therapy is the state of consciousness of the therapist, regardless of the modality that the therapist is using.

To some extent, some therapies, such as jungian, have more of a spiritual dimension to them than others, such as freudian. But the method used, the modality of the therapy, is secondary. The primary factor is the state of consciousness of the therapist.

Even in certain modalities that one would not describe as spiritual at all, such as psychoanalysis, there are some therapists that after years of applying it, they suddenly develop, sometimes without even knowing, the ability to simply be there and listen. They let go of trying to apply the method, or the grid, or the map, that they have learned to apply, and they suddenly go into spacious listening. Then whatever they contribute becomes more spontaneous. They no longer just apply what they have learned to the patient situation. In many case they even forget what they have learned. They then become truly effective therapists.

Even if the method seems to have a spiritual dimension, such as 'dwelling into the jungian unconscious', more important is the therapist's ability to let go of their knowledge. It's good that they have the knowledge first, and they may used bits of it, but the primary tool is awareness. Even a predominantly mind identified psychoanalyst, after years of working with patients, they suddenly become present and work more and more intuitively. That's when therapy become really effective. They don't even know this is happening.

If that dimension is missing then there is the danger that the patient keeps telling their victim story and they never transcend that. It is helpful to know one's own unconscious patterns. To make the unconscious patterns conscious. That is level one of self knowledge - to become aware of your own patterns. It is surprising how difficult it seems to be for people to be aware of their own areas of unconsciousness.

Level two of self knowledge is to know who you are beyond the patterns. The patterns are important because they block you from reaching level two. You cannot reach level two as long as you are completely trapped in the patterns, level one. There are things in your life that stop you from realising who you are.

So its good to approach level one. Some do it in therapy, or they go through a more spontaneous recognition, or listen to their friends, or people they work with. If one person says something about you, you may say "Well that's their projection." If ten people say the same thing about you, then you might want to listen.

There is one particular school of therapy, called Carl Rogers School of Therapy, based on spacious listening. He uses the terms 'unconditional acceptance of the client, just listening'. Carl Rogers became very effective therapist, then he attempted to teach other therapists, to not interfere with the client's mind. A few people got it. But there were some therapists that learned the externals of just listening but are not yet able to enter true awareness, and they were then perceived by their patients as completely uninterested in their patients and their problems. Somehow the patients can feel that.

Effective therapy comes through doing therapy. You could have no knowledge in therapy, and just be present, and the answers would just come through you. You would be a wonderful reflection for that person. Offer the patient the space of awareness. What you have learned does not matter, you will intuitively know what to say, if you are present.

Look for a therapist that is present, or preferably become so present that you don't need a therapist anymore.

epiphany55
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Re: Suicide vs Egocide

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:25 pm

Thanks all for the advice. I will seek therapy, but I understand I need to be rather selective over the therapist I go with.

I've been digging deep and I can identify two places these negative feelings are coming from

1) The guilt from doing something that violated my own moral standards

2) The feeling of isolation from society for doing something that violates their moral standards.

I keep reassuring myself that there was no long term harm/damage, that I have done more good than harm in my life, even that I will be a better person for the inner growth this has fuelled. But the thing that really gets me is that I will never feel that sense of innocence for the rest of my life. Life feels so... serious now. So heavy and dark. Every time I talk to someone and don't reveal what I did (which is everyone, even my partner, even my parents and sister), I feel like a fraud. And no, I can't bring myself to tell them. I am sick of reading articles about guilt advising "talk to a friend about what you did and you'll feel better..." er, no, it will most likely destroy our friendship because of awkwardness.

I get that everyone does bad things at some point in their life. But this is different. This feels like over stepping the line or something, like a whole different class of bad thing. When people say "don't worry everyone makes mistakes", my heart sinks - this was more than an innocent mistake. This was a side of me that I know is dead, but the corpse of whom I still can't bury and let the worms do their thing.

I would do anything to feel innocence again, but it's the one thing I will never have.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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